Genealogy Chat

Is there anyone who can help me find his father. Details are:

William Joseph Holmes born abt 1810 possibly in Derbyshire
married Mary (nee ??) abt 1838
Mary born abt 1814 Derbyshire and the census info I cant make sense of it - Herney Woodham, Derbyshire. I dont know where "Herney Woodham" is.

Going by census records they had 7 children"
Ann E born abt 1840 Derbyshire (very strange district - Herneyfield
Mary A born abt 1844 Poplar, Middlesex
Susanna born abt 1848 Charlton, Kent
William Jospeh born abt 1855 Woolwich
Sara J born abt 1861 Woolwich
Eliza born abt 1845
Samuel L born abt 1850

The census returns for 1851 and 1871shows Mary as the "head" and not "widow" and the father, her husband is not listed on them and I cant find the other returns like 1841 or 1861 to see if he is on those..

Family address is Hardens Manorway, Charlton as far back as 1851 and as far as 1911. Then I have William Joseph Holmes (his son born 1881) living with his son William Henry Reginald Holmes b 1914 until he died in 1957.

My guess is to look for a marriage in Derbyshire but I dont know what the census means by Herney Woodham Derbyshire. I cant find such a place.

Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction please?
many thanks
Julie Holmes

Two things you can do ...................

1. Buy a birth certificate for one of the children. That will tell you Mary's maiden name, and confirm where the child was born.

After you have that certificate ..................

2. See if you can find a marriage certificate for William and Mary, then buy that and you will find the names of both their fathers, if known


Use www.freebmd.org.uk

and buy the certificates only from the General Register Office for £9.25, postage included.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/


This could be a possible birth for Ann E , from freebmd

Births Mar 1840 (>99%)

Holmes Ann Elizabeth Belper 19 388



??? Susanna?

Births Jun 1847 (>99%)
Holmes Susannah Greenwich 5 252


this could be William Joseph, jr

Births Dec 1856 (>99%)
Holmes William Joseph Lewisham 1d 579


It's going to cost you £9.25 for each certificate ............. but it is the ONLY way to be certain that you have the correct parents.

for our information .................


is this your family in 1851, without William??

1851 Census

Name: Mary Holmes
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Wife
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Henry Woolhouse, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Charlton
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration District: Lewisham
Sub-registration District: Plumstead
ED, institution, or vessel: 1e
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 70
Piece: 1590
Folio: 104
Page Number: 16

Mary Holmes 37
Anna E Holmes 11 b.ca 1840, Henry Field, Derbyshire
Mary A Holmes 7 b.ca 1844, Poplar, Middlesex
Eliza Holmes 6 b.ca 1845, Poplar
Susannah Holmes 4 b.ca 1847, Woolwich, Kent
Samuel T Holmes 1 b.ca 1850, Woolwich



Note that Mary's birth place is given as Henry Woolhouse on this census, and that Ann / Anna's is Henry Field

Does not look like Horsley on the census that Sylvia posted, so still looking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsley_Woodhouse

Could you post the 1871 census that you have them on?

Is Sara J born 1861 the daughter of Mary born 1814?

Thank-you

Just for ref:
1881 England Census
William J. Holmes Age: 24 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship to Head: Head Spouse: Sarah E. Holmes
Gender: Male Where born: Charlton, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Charlton Next Woolwich County/Island: London Country: England
Street Address: 2 Manorway
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Packing Case Maker
Registration District: Woolwich Sub-registration District: Charlton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Piece: 740 Folio: 54 Page Number: 12
William J. Holmes 24
Sarah E. Holmes 27
Sarah E. Holmes 2
Annie M. Holmes 3
William J. Holmes
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 740; Folio: 54; Page: 12; GSU roll: 1341173.

If you have not got the marriage certificate of William and Mary, or them together in any censuses, how do you know that they married and that you have the correct family?

Year:1840
Relationship:
Forenames:Ann Elizabeth
Surname:HOLMES
SubDistrict:Duffield
County:Derbyshire
Country:England
Register Office:392
Reference:DB/02/011
Record source:Derbyshire Registrars Birth Index

(above from Find My Past, Duffield on 1851?)

Chris :)

1861
HOLMES, Ann Servant Unmarried F 21 1840 House Servant
..., Derbyshire (Duffield)
Piece: 409
Folio: 48
Page: 3
Registration District: Lewisham
Civil Parish: Plumstead
Municipal Borough:
Address: 4, Burrage Road Clarenden Villas, Plumstead
County: London, Kent

If it helps at all - on the 1881 census, Mary is a widow, born 1815 in Millford, Derbyshire.

If you look at the original image of the 1871 Mary is marked as widow.

1871 census transcription details for: Harden's Manorway, Charlton


National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 774
Folio: 51
Page: 22
Reg. District: Woolwich
Sub District: Charlton
Parish: Charlton
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Harden's Manorway, Charlton
County: London, Kent
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
HOLMES, Mary Head F 56 1815 Derbyshire
HOLMES, Ann Daughter F 31 1840 Derbyshire
HOLMES, Mary A Daughter F 27 1844 Middlesex
LEE, Susanna Daughter F 23 1848 Kent
LEE, John Son-In-Law M 24 1847 Kent
HOLMES, William Son M 15 1856 Kent
HOLMES, Sarah J Daughter F 10 1861 Kent
LEE, John T Grandson M 0 1871 Kent

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/belper.html

(Horsley Woodhouse for Mother on 1851 image?)

Chris :)

edits (just seen reply above from Patchem)

Derek on this site does Parish Record lookups for Derbyshire. Unfortunately, the marriage that Astra posted is just before Civil Registration started, so is unlikely to have father's names.

Wow, thank you everyone for your help.
First off, Ive made a mistake saying the fathers name is William Joseph Holmes. Thats his sons name. I do not know the fathers name.

Yes, this is them. Family homes seem to be at Hardens Manorway and inverine Rd.
This father - Marys husband may possibly shift the family line to Derbyshire!

I think the hardest part for me is not knowing the districts within a county. So I am looking in Millford and/or Duffield in Derbyshire and there is also Henry Field, Derbyshire?

I now have a few things to go and check out thanks to your replies and will certainly go purchase the birth certificate for William born 1855-57

thanks again
Julie

Use google maps or similar to see where places are:

https://maps.google.co.uk/

We think it might be Horsley Woodhouse, so search for that, and then see how near Millford is. (You can use Get Directions for distances)

I found this site:

https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Derbyshire_Parishes

I havent been able to find William Joseph Holmes born abt 1855 Kent birth reference to purchase and find out who is father is

The Ann E born Belper.....Found this on ancestry but I doubt it is her because the mother is a Sarah not a Mary:

Name: Ann Holmer
[Ann Holmes]
Age: 9 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Horsley
Hundred: Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View Image

Registration District: Belper
Sub-registration District: Horsley
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Book: 23
Folio: 17
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Holmer 33
Sarah Holmer 39
Mary Holmer 8
Henry Holmer 5
Elizabeth Holmer 2
Ann Holmer 9 Mo

I can find only one other possible Ann Holmes on an 1840 census in Derby were she would be 1-2 years old - finding the 1840 one wold definately give me the fathers name - Ann born - Mother is a Mary and father a Samuel BUT they are at the same address on a 1851 census so it is not them

Marriages Dec 1876 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
HOLMES William Joseph Woolwich 1d 1476
Roffey Sarah Elizabeth Woolwich 1d 1476


Marriages Sep 1870 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Holmes Susannah Woolwich 1d 1074
Lee John Woolwich 1d 1074

(above Certs. could be useful)

Chris :)

1911
HOLMES, William Joseph Head Married34 years M 55 1856 Packing Case Maker Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Sarah Elizabeth Wife Married F 57 1854 Kent Woolwich
HOLMES, Eliza Louise Daughter Single F 24 1887 Relief Stamper Printing Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Lucy Jane Daughter Single F 22 1889 Relief Stamper Printing Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Katherine Hannah Daughter F 20 1891 Dress Maker Kent New Charlton
HOLMES, Matilda Nellie Daughter Single F 19 1892 Tinnes (Tennis) Ball Sewer Kent New Charlton
REBECCA, Beatrice Daughter Single M 17 1894
RG number: RG14
Piece: 2846
Reference: RG14PN2846 RD30 SD1 ED3 SN3
Registration District: Woolwich
Sub District: Charlton
Enumeration District: 3
Parish: Charlton and Kidbrooke
Address: 2 Hardens Manorway New Charlton
County: London

edits (with below, if Daughter Mary?)

1891
HOLMES, Mary Ann Servant Single F 50 1841 Domestic
Poplar, London
Piece: 527
Folio: 55
Page: 23
Registration District: Woolwich
Civil Parish: Charlton Next Woolwich
Municipal Borough:
Address: 32, Hardens Manorway, Charlton Next Woolwich, Charlton
County: London


Deaths Dec 1937 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Holmes William J 81 Greenwich 1d 953


Holmes
William Joseph
Burial date
9 Nov 1937
Royal Borough of Greenwich - London
Location
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(on above, if him)

I have just noticed on the original image of the 1871 that Ann(a) is noted as married so I am wondering if this is her and she was either entered on the 1871 census with her mother under her maiden name.or maybe she was just visiting and was entered as Holmes by the enumerator.

Name: George William Tucker
Birth Date: 1843
Age: 27
Spouse's Name: Annie Elizabeth Holmes
Spouse's Birth Date: 1840
Spouse's Age: 30
Event Date: 24 Oct 1870
Event Place: Queenborough, Kent, England
Father's Name: George Foster Tucker
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Joseph Holmes
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I05207-0
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2228369
Reference ID:


1891 census transcription details for: 62, Selcroft Road, Greenwich


National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 514
Folio: 97
Page: 67
Reg. District: Greenwich
Sub District: Greenwich West
Parish: Greenwich
Enum. District: 20
Ecclesiastical District: Christchurch
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 62, Selcroft Road, Greenwich
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
TUCKER, Annie E Head Widow F 51 1840 Laundress
Duffield, Derbyshire
TUCKER, George J Son M 19 1872 General Labourer
Charlton, Kent
TUCKER, William B Son M 17 1874 General Labourer
Charlton, Kent
TUCKER, Marian Daughter F 15 1876
Greenwich, Kent
TUCKER, Annie E Daughter F 12 1879
Greenwich, Kent

Maybe??

1841 census transcription details for: 11, Chrisp Street, All Saints Poplar, Tower Hamlets

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 702
Book/Folio: 6/18
Page: 29
Reg. District: Poplar
Sub District: Poplar
Parish: All Saints Poplar
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets
Address: 11, Chrisp Street, All Saints Poplar, Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
ASHBOURN, Ann F 40 1801 Laundress
ASHBOURN, Josh M 17 1824 Mariner
ASHBOURN, Mary F 13 1828 F S
ASHBOURN, Thomas M 11 1830
ASHBOURN, James M 4 1837
HOLMES, Joseph M 24 1817 Engineer
HOLMES, Mary F 26 1815
HOLMES, Wm M 9 1832
HOLMES, Ann F 1 1840 Middlesex
SIMONS, Thos M 29 1812 Mariner
SIMONS, Ellen F 26 1815
SHANNING, Mary F 14 1827 F S

Deaths Jun 1869 (>99%)

HOLMES Joseph 50 Woolwich 1d 497

?
Births Dec 1856
Holmes William Joseph Lewisham 1d 579

I think Lewisham includes Charlton.

You need his marriage certificate also, to see who he claims there for his Father.

Added:
Sylvia posted this one for you at the start.....