Genealogy Chat

Brilliantly worked out Astra!

This could be father Joseph in 1851. Living in Sheppy, which is where Ann got married:

Address: Victory Street, Minster In Sheppy, Mile Town Sheerness
County: Kent

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
FOSTER, Isabella Head Widow F 45 1806 Laundress
Boston, Lincolnshire
TORRENCE, Leonard Son Unmarried M 21 1830 Ag Labourer
Sheerness, Kent
TORRENCE, Robert Son Unmarried M 15 1836
Woolwich, Kent
TORRENCE, Mary Daughter Unmarried F 9 1842
Limehouse, Middlesex
BURGESS, Edward Grand Son Unmarried M 5 1846
Sheerness, Kent
HOLMES, Joseph Lodger Married M 32 1819 Engineer R N
Belper, Derbyshire

Thank you ChristinaS and thank you for finding him in 1851. :-D

Joseph Holmes
BuriedOn
11 Apr 1869
Recorded at:
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)
Date of death
07 Apr 1869

Mary Holmes
BuriedOn:
24 Mar 1888
Recorded at:
Charlton Cemetery (Greenwich)
Date of death
18 Mar 1888


Deaths Mar 1888 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
HOLMES Mary 74 Woolwich 1d 760

(if Mary above?)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

Chris :)

Joseph Holmes
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1869
Age at Death: 50
Registration District: Woolwich
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 497

Would match the 1851 census for age - if the right person.

Relevant, if the right man - he joined the ship at Deal in 1857:

Jos Holmes
Medal or Award: Baltic Medal
Service Year: 1845-1855
Service Location: Crimea
Campaign or Service: Crimean War
Ship Name: Princess Royal

Thanks for all your posts Patchem. Answering your question how I know that is my family on these census returns. Its because I know where my grandfather lived and in his earlier years he had his father living with him - William Joseph born 1881. If you look through the electoral roles on ancestry it shows them living in the same house 64a Inverine Rd. The William Joseph Senior died in 1957. Then my grandfather lives in the house until around 1935. He even had his inlaws living with him and his wife Elizabeth - George and Elizabeth Madden. Trade of Packing Case maker seemed to follow through a few generations as well. Pre William Joseph b 1881to his father William joseph born 1856 is the one I couldnt find but know the address was hardens manorway because 1891census shows william joseph junior there aged 10.

I am going to order some of the certificates you have all advised of and from there I am sure I will find the Wm Holmes born 1817

My Grandfather is William Henry Reginald Holmes and I know he lived with his two sisters Doris and Elsie for a while. Another mystery is that there was a business called Artillery Office Cleaning that was run by his younger sisters husband. I cannot find this younger sister because William HR was born 1914 so she was born after that and there are no census returns beyond there and the business was dissolved in the 70s or 80s and I cannot find any information on it.

thanks again for all your help :)

Although those conclusions look correct, Ann is shown as being local in 1841 (while her parents and older brother are not).

However in all other censuses (?) she is shown as born Derbyshire.

Also, who is William's father, as he was 9 in 1841?

Your grandfather?

Births Jun 1914
HOLMES William H R Madden Woolwich 1d 2294

Free bmd will give you births with the same surnames.

So this one?
Births Sep 1920
Holmes Vera K Madden Woolwich 1d 2360

But I cannot see a marriage for her.

Any idea of where and when died?


This company?
ARTILLERY OFFICE CLEANING SERVICES LIMITED
Company number 01210404
Registered office
140 GRAY'S INN RD., LONDON W.C.1.,
Accounts last filed No accounts filed - report will be brief, accounts information will be empty
Status Company is dissolved

Hi Patchem, I agree that the dates and ages for it being Joseph Holmes dont quite fit. The 1841 census shows a William as b abt 1832 9 years old - older than Ann. William J Senior was born after Ann in 1856.

What about the theory about Ann being married and just visiting is interesting and possible?

Yes, that is the business and years ago I did buy the report and it was empty LOL

My Grandfather, William HR died in 1998. I have the info from deceased online for his death and when I found his, I searched others and found a family plot that has William Joseph senior buried there:

Holmes, Eliza Louisa 9 Jan 1963 dod unrecorded
HOlmes, Sarah Elizabeth 11 Mar 1943 dod unrecorded
Holmes, William Joseph 9 Nov 1937 dod unrecorded
Hooper. Charles William 12 Dec 1901 dod 14 Dec 1901
HOlmes, Charles Samuel 6 Mar 1897 dod 26 Feb 1897
Holmes Rebecca Mary Ann 12 Jul 1892 dod 7 Jul 1892

I searched for Hooper and found Annie MM married Charles Hooper and it is their son buried there.

I just found Mary's burial:
Charlton Cemetery 4 Dec 1888

Interesting that this time, the plot has 4 other people buried there as well, none with surname Holmes:

Atkinson, Dorothy Bertha death 29 Jul 1905
Wetherfield, Alfred George 19 Jul 1905
Calligarl, Alfred 7 Dec 1901
Moseley, Harriett 11 Dec 1870

But No Husband. Wonder why he isnt buried in the same plot? First person buried there being Harriett.

Hi Julie
Hopefully the certificates you have ordered will resolve this and give us the correct father's name.
As for the 1841 I posted it may not be correct. It was just a theory. The ages will have been adjusted as they all were on the 1841 and as for the 9 year old William he could just as easily be Joseph's brother. We don't know as no family relationships are given.
If it is Annie Elizabeth who married in 1870 and she is definitely noted as married on the census then she gives her father as Joseph. I can't find any other reference to Ann as Holmes after the 1871 so it seems likely that the marriage is correct.
We will all just have to wait for the certificates to arrive and then we can try and trace the correct man.
Please let us know the details when they arrive.

Astra
x

Alfred Wetherfield and Dorothy Atkinson were both babies when they died.

Chris and Flip, you are both right, Joseph Holmes buried 1869 IS him.
I purchased the parish record and it shows him living at hardens manorway which is the families address :)

And Chris, that Mary is the right one as well, same family address :)
SOOOooo is that info about the war record his? Where did you find that?

Patchem, the correct maddens are George and Elizabeth Clara who had Katherine Sophia Madden who married William Joseph 1907..
I believe George senior died and Katherine lived with my Grandfather (his mother in law LOL) and her son - Katherines brother.

So, now I need to find the marriage record for Joseph and Mary in Charlton about 1835-1839 and their births....Still thinking perhaps they married in Derbyshire since Mary his wife and first daughter Ann were born there. Or perhaps Joseph if he is the one that was in the war, was just there on duty or something and I still carry on looking in Charlton.

I have hunted on quite a few genealogy sites and have not found ANY parish records of my Holmes line other than the burials - Would it be the same Church where the family members have been buried?

Thanks so much
Julie

That's good news Julie. Now at least you can research the correct man. His 1841 and 1851 census records are already posted on here and his death which you have.
Several marriages which could be him so when you get a birth certificate it will give us Mary's maiden name and then you will know for certain.
One marriage in Duffield in 1832 to Mary Griffin which is maybe too early and then in 1838 one to Mary Whitemore and another to Mary Hurd in Derbyshire. Could be any of these or none of them.

At least now I know that I can put 2 and 2 together and not always come up with 5!!
Well done everyone.

The war record was from ancestry, but there's very little other info, apart from a crimean medal as well. But the occupation not noted. It could be worth taking a look at the national archives royal navy records to see if you can find your Joseph - their records can be downloaded at £3 odd each.

It's Anne E on the image, had hoped it would show the parish but doesn't - at least it puts Annie with the right husband

Anne C. Tucker
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: George W. Tucker
Gender: Female
Where born: (Parish NK), Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Greenwich
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 126 Old Woolwich Rd
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration District: Greenwich
Sub-registration District: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 724
Folio: 35
Page Number: 22
Household Members: Name Age
George W. Tucker 39
Anne C. Tucker 41
George J. Tucker 9
William B. Tucker 7
Mary A. Tucker 5
Annie E. Tucker 2

Pretty sure this is one of the children from that 1881 census - wonder where his middle name came from, it's confirmed by his birth registration:

Wm Beman Tucker
Age: 12
Birth Date: 9 Jan 1874
School: Calvert Road School
Borough: Greenwich
Admission Date: 17 May 1886
Parent: Ann Elizabeth
Notes: Calvert Road School (0460) opened in 1879. Renamed Annandale School in 1951
Reference Number: LCC/EO/DIV06/CAL/AD/001

Chris, I see a percentage rating next to some of your information, what are you using that gives you that rating?

If you mean the figures like this for percentage rating:

Births Sep 1867 (>99%)

Then it is from free bmd

I am wondering if you lovely people could help me with another search?

The Holmes line is my mothers and I have her maiden name for my surname. I was adopted out in 1966 by her and when I was old enough I changed my name back to my real name - Julie Holmes (didnt have a happy life with my adopted family) My fathers name is Colin Alan Richard Gray and I believe I have found him.

I know the Holmes line is my mothers because of the information I got when I got my adoption file - it had their names in it as it did my birth father. It had William HR Holmes and Elsie as my mothers parents living in a particluar street so I have been able to research my birth mothers line although Im still looking for her personally.

My fathers side is proving harder although I have found him - Cant get past his current wife to talk to him :( But, I am still doing my real family history project.

I am totally stuck with my fathers side. He was Colin Alan Richard Gray born 28/1/1946 and his father was Frederick Percy Gray - deceased between my birth and Colins first marriage 1966-1969. In 1966 he was living in Plumstead at a boarding house and he had a mother and siblings living in the area with his parents divourced.

I cannot find either my fathers or grand fathers birth certificates.
My father also goes under another name which might be his mothers maiden name - Deane but I cannot find anything at all.

Have you got the marriage of your grandparents, and have you found the births of any of your father's siblings?

If so, are they all in the same area?

Thank-you

Added:
The information that your grandfather died between 1966 and 1969 might not be accurate, where did not get it from, as people might have made assumptions?