Genealogy Chat

Could someone please find me a marriage for JOHN PARR to an ELIZABETH?

In 1841 Census,the family lived Flat Lane.,Parr(no mistake,the family Parr,lived in Parr!)
John and Elizabeth are down as aged 45,making them b.c1796.

Children of the couple are:-Henry.,bapt 1st Dec 1816..........William.,bapt 27th Dec 1818(buried 24th May 1822).........Esther,bapt 7th Oct,1821(buried 14th Aug 1822).......William.,bapt 31st Aug 1823..........John.,,bapt 17th Jul 1825.........Margaret,bapt 9th Dec 1827..........Elizabeth,bapt 29th Nov 1829.........Thomas,bapt 23rd Oct 1831(buried 31st Dec 1835)..........Mary,bapt 6th Aug 1833.

ALL childrens' Baptisms and Burials were at St Mary(now St Helen)Church,St Helens.,Prescot.,Lancs.
ALL children had parents John and Elizabeth.
ALL lived in Parr.

Going off birth years of John and Elizabeth,I only found one marriage with those names.

.Marriage: 19 Aug 1816 St Mary The Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
John Parr - (X), Collier, Bachelor, this Parish
Betty Twiss - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Henry Twiss, (X); Sarah Tarbuck, (X)
Married by Banns by: C. G. T. Driffield, Vicar
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1830, Page 56, Entry 167
Source: LDS Film 1657584

Could anyone please tell me if this is the correct one,or is there another I may have missed?

thankyou. :-)

It isn't possible for anyone unconnected to say categorically whether the marriage is correct, although it does seem very likely.

Is the groom's occupation the same as given in the census records?

Where was his wife born?

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

First Name:JOHN
Last Name:PARR
Birth Year:1796
Age:45
Birth County:LANCASHIRE
Gender:M
Occupation: COAL MINER
Street:FLEET LANE
Parish:PRESCOT
City:
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
House Number:
House Name:
Registration District:PRESCOT
Town:PARR
Record set:1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Collections from:United Kingdom
Archive Reference:HO107
Book:9
Folio:29
Page:8
Piece Number:516

thnx Reggie...yes,John down as collier in all births,and censuses.

Thelma,I found it as Flat Lane! lol...prob different transcriber!

Putting in Parr on the Lancs OPC site,and 2 yrs either side of 1816(when the couple would be aged 19,20,or 21,going off ages on census,and first child b.c1816) I could only find the ONE marriage for a John to Elizabeth.

I have standard membership on GR(have to buy credits for details),also have Ancestry(which didnt give me anything different)..and use Lancs OPC a lot,cos my family comes mostly from Lancs area.

I just wondered if there was maybe another pairing on a site I wasnt on?

I haven't gone so far back without help,on any of our trees!
Now I remember why...its SO hard.

Elaine

the only other site is the LDS, which has the IGI

Don't buy credits on GR...............ask for help

Hello Elaine - do you have John and Elizabeth on a later census?

Bearing in mind that the 1841 rounded ages down to the nearest 5 then John could actually have been 45 - 49 in 1841 making him born 1792 to 1796. Same for Elizabeth.

The 1851 *might* give some clarity to ages and birth location.

Sorry R..I don't know what the LDS or IGI is.(please let me know)

MC...I am at my daughters at the minute and don't have my notes with me....will check when I go home.

Thankyou both for the help.

Elaine

Ps, On the marriage for John Parr and Betty,the witnesses names were given,but no fathers...is there any way of looking at the original image,or did they not put fathers names on in 1816?

Elaine
there seem to be 2 familes Parr living in Parr., with similar names. Which one of the Parr's is your ancestor please to help prove the right family.

It could help if you could give the marriage for that ancestor as well

LDS = latterday saints - ie familysearch.org

father's names were not usually on the register before 1837

have you got any certificates from later generations to prove which branch you are following as not all bmd's for the area are on line

I know,LA,and they all marry women with the same names,and call their kids the same names! lol

I have a copy of the wedding cert for Margaret Parr,aged 19 and John Whitfield,age 27.(platelayer.)....most of our Whitfields worked for the railway. Both were resident in Burtonwood at the time of marriage.

Marriage was in the Parish of Warrington.,16th May 1847. Grooms father Peter Whitfield(deceased)....Brides father John Parr(Collier)..most of our Parrs were colliers.

Witnesses>William Parr and Margaret Whitfield.

Also have a copy of birth cert for my gt grandad,Thomas Whitfield.,June 1864.....parents John Whitfield and Margaret Whitfield(nee Parr)..their address is Lovers Lane.,Atherton.(Margaret lived 22,Lovers Lane,as a widow in 1871 Census)

I found John Whitfield(but down as born 1811 !)with 5 siblings ,all bapt St Michael and All Angels.,Burtonwood...all with parents Peter Whitfield and Ellen.,father>file cutter.

Know what you mean about 2 diff Parr families....I found a Thomas and a James Whitfield.,bapt in same Church in Burtonwood...with parents Peter Whitfield and Ellen..BUT this Peter was a farmer!

Is this any good L.A?

Elaine

thanks Elaine

it just helps to get a general picture especially after 1837

will have another look

just going perhaps on instinct

1841 - most probable

Peter Whitfield 55 - farmer (but on most of children's baptisms file cutter)
Ellen Whitfield 50
James Whitfield 25 - file cutter
Jane Whitfield 23
Margaret Whitfield 21 -witness at wedding????
Peter Whitfield 19
Ellen Whitfield 15
Elizabeth Whitfield 12

on Thomas (B1813), James & Elizabeth's baptism's = farmer

John called his 1st 2 children Peter & Ellen

John did not seem to know when he was born as it varies from census to census

Do you know,I thought that many a time....HOW did people know how old they were.,when they were born.,their birthday every year....most couldnt read or write.,so they couldnt read newspapers,even if they could afford to buy em..no tvs/radios.

I think I would be hard-pressed to know MY details! lol

Hi L.A.
BAPTISMS. St Michael and All Angels.,Burtonwood..

12th May 1811 (b.19th Apr.1811)..JOHN WITFIELD..son of Peter & Ellen Witfield (Burtonwood)father--file cutter.

12th Sept.1813..THOMAS WHITFIELD...son of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood)father--farmer.

12th Jan.1817 (b.11th Dec.1815)...JAMES WHITFIELD...son of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood)father--farmer.

21st Dec.1823 (b.6th Mar 1818)...JANE WHITFIELD...dau of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood)Father--file cutter

21st Dec.1823 (b.16th Jun 1820)...MARGARET WHITFIELD...dau of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood) father--file cutter

21st Dec.1823 (b.16th Jan 1823)...PETER WHITFIELD...son of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood) father--file cutter

1st Jun 1828....ELLEN WHITFIELD...dau of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood) father--file cutter

26th Apr 1829 (b.9th Apr 1829)...ELIZABETH WHITFIELD...dau of Peter & Ellen(Burtonwood) father--file cutter

Going off John being the first-born,I looked for marriages in the previous 10 yrs...could only find 1 for a Peter Whitfield to an Ellen....................

MARRIAGE...Warrington. Lancs.
24th Jan 1809
PETER WHITFIELD to ELLEN DUMBELL.

what do you think LancashireAnn?

I suspect it may not be on-line. As all the baptisms were at Burtonwood the marriage could well have been there too. However the marriages for Burtonwood are only transcribed up to 1750. You need a look up at either Lancs or Cheshire Records office for later years.

As it is a printed register the staff at Lancs may do a quick look up for the appropriate years for free for you. Worth a try.

If they won't I can try to pop in sometime (I haven't been for ages as I have not had time to settle to my own research for several months).

LA...what do you mean by Lancs or Cheshire Records office? Is that the same as Lancs OPC?

Thats where i found Peter Whitfield to Ellen Dumbell in 1809.

I did google *Burtonwood.Warrington?*,and it said Burtonwood was a civil parish in the outermost suburbs of Warrington.Cheshire,but Historically,it came under Warrington.Lancs.

Looked for a baptism of an Ellen Dumbell on Lancs OPC,and 4 came up.....one was 1760(be 49 in 1809).,one was 1766(be 43 in 1809).,one was 1794(be 15 in 1809)...(.the first two seemed on the old side to get married and start a family,and the other sounded too young)........the last one I thought looked promising..she was bapt.6th Nov.1785(be 24 at time of wedding in 1809),dau of William Dumbell(a carpenter) and Jane.
She was bapt. St.Elphin.,Warrington.

Did Peter and Ellen marry in Warrington,because that was were she was born and reared?

Lancs Records Office or the Lancashire Archives is the actual office building in Preston.
This address will give you the contact details.
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=4528&pageid=30757&e=e

You can fill in an enquiry form but if they are going to make a charge let me know as I may be visiting there in a couple of weeks.

This page shows what is available to search there.
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=4528&pageid=30542&e=e

As I said before only marriage up to 1750 are transcribed at present onto lan opc. The paper records for later years are held at the Lancs Archives building.

thankyou very much....i appreciate that.

what enquiry would i ask for? Just any marriages for a Peter Whitfield to an Ellen?

I might be going down the wrong road altogether(wouldnt be the first time!),but the following is what I found....please feel free to correct me...you have a lot more experience than me.

As the marriage was 1809,I looked for baptisms between 1769 & 1789(making Peter aged 20--40 in 1809)....there was only 1 on Lancs opc..that was Peter Whitfield.,bapt 25th Nov.1781(making him 28 at date of marriage)He was bapt St.Wilfred.Farnworth.,nr Prescot.,the son of Peter and Margaret(Ditton)

Then I looked for a marriage for a Peter and Margaret...there were 2..the first was for a Peter and Margaret from Widness

The more likely one was the marriage of Peter Whitfield(file cutter)Ditton,(which was were Peter,b.1781,was born.)to Margaret Robinson.,Ditton.,on 13th Oct.1771.,All Saints.Rainford.

Looked for birth of THIS Peter...only 1 on Lancs opc..Peter Whitfield.,bapt. 21st Jul 1749.St.Wilfred.,Farnworth,nr Prescot.,son of Samuel Whitfield and Ann(living Ditton)

2 matches on Lancs opc for marriage of a Samuel Whitfield to an Ann.....(.first one in the right place)..17th March 1739/40.,St.Wilfred.,Farnworth.,nr Prescot.,...Samuel Whitfield(Ditton)to Ann Wainright(Ditton)..........the 2nd one was in Childwall to a Suzannah Foster

2 matches on Lancs opc for baptisms of Samuel Whitfield...one was in Childwall(son of John,Toxteth Park......could this be the one above,who married Suzannah?)

The second one was for Samuell Whitfield bapt.8th Oct.1710.son of William Whitfield.,Prescott.

1 match on Lancs opc for a marriage of a William Whitfield(between 1670 & 1690)..24th Dec.1682.,St.Michael.,Huyton.,to Mary Mullinex.

THEN,I come unstuck!....find 3 matches for bapt.of William Whitfield(between 1642 & 1662)
1. 13th Aug 1655.,All Saints.,Childwall..son of John Whitfield(Garston)
2. 17th Jun 1659.,All Saints.,Childwall.,son of Thomas Whitfield(Allerton)
3. 7th Oct 1660.,All Saints.,Childwall.,illegitimate son of Robert Webster and Elizabeth Whitfield.
Could John.,Thomas and Elizabeth be siblings,and all named their sons after their father?

Does all that make any sense L.A.,or is it completely wrong?!
Elaine

As there are several Peter Whitfields (you only have to look at the burials at Burtonwood to see a few) it would probably be better to wait until you can confirm the marriage before you try to go back further as if the 1809 marriage you are working on turns out to be the wrong one you will have wasted your time.

You are best asking the Lancs archives for a look up at Burtonwood St Michaels for a Peter Whitfield to an Ellen c 1810.They have a printed register for this church so it should be easy for them. You could try ringing them or just submit the enquiry form from the link I gave you and see if they will answer for free.

an alternative source is Cheshire Records office. As Ellen was born in Sankey, they may have married at Great Sankey St Mary's, again not online. Lancs do not hold the marriage registers for the years you need (they only have from 1812) but Cheshire Archives have all the records so you could also contact them.

another possibility is trying to find a will for Peter who seems to have died in 1846. As this is before the national probate index was introduced in 1858 again you would need a look up at the Lancs Archives. It is possible to search their catalogue (Lancat) on their site but at the moment there seems to be a problem with the search facility.