Genealogy Chat

I'm getting just as puzzled by my John Roath so keep your eyes peeled! I thought it would be easy - yesterday I got a Welsh lady to say 'Roath' with a Welsh accent as they were Brummies in Wales and then I got a German friend to say Roath with a German accent as one family had a German visitor. I thought they might be 'Roth' family. Apparently the German for Roath would be "Rote" - not sounding the 'h'.
Keep on searching
Jill

Hi Jill

Many thanks, probably not the same person.......but you never know! LOL

Having spent many many years searching for any sign of my Henry Rose before 1881, you can see I'm getting desperate!! LOL

Mary

Sorry Mary,I haven't followed Henry up at all, but I like your reasoning about the name!
I've found Henry Roath in Kelly's directory in 1900 and 1908 as a polisher at 13 Warstone Lane.
Apart frrom Henry as Jane's grandson in 1871 age 14 as Pearl button maker I don't have any info on his parents.
But if anything turns up I will let you know.
cheers
Jill

Hi Jillian

I wonder if you can help me out here with some information please?

You have a Henry Roath (grandson) living with his grandmother Jane in both 1861 and 1871. Do you know who this Henry's parents are at all, or any info about Henry after 1871?

In 1871 there is also a grandson Arthur living with Jane........I can find Arthur in 1881, but Henry seems to completely disappear.

I'm asking in order to try and rule this Henry out from my search for my Henry Rose, born about the same time and place.........try saying Roath with a lisp and see how it sounds to someone unfamiliar with the name. LOL.

Your Henry seems to disappear in 1881 and strangely enough that's the same time that my Henry suddenly appears!!

Many thanks

Mary

I've had a really good look at the 1841 census and the name is definitely JANE but the age IS in the male column, and looks to be rounded up or down, So was the enumerator getting a bit tired and fed up?
Three of the children were baptised at St Phillips at the same time in 1836:

JANE, MARY ANN and JOHN JAMES ROATH

I would guess that mother was getting them all "done" before they moved to Wales. I can find no death for Jane or John James.

I don't know, Nicky. I still think 'my' John is a separate person.
I've GOT to get someone to study the St Phillips registers for me, haven't I?
A sad little story is that he was my granddad's grandfather and was never mentioned in our house so he never knew his four grandchildren, including my mother, who were all born before he died.
Thanks for all the delving, Nicky
Jill

WOW! I've just come in and found you did all that detective work for me, Nicky. I've been poring over my notes for days now. I've read your theory through twice and I've got to think this one through...
I thought it would be odd that they didn't baptise him at St Phillips even if he wasn't officially registered. He is also so clear on all the other cesus returns right up to his death - although it took some chasing up of all his wives.
Thanks for your on going help, Nicky, I'll get back to you with what I think about all this.
love
Jill

Think I may have sussed it.........I think Jane may be John.

On the 1841 census when you look at the image Jane is under the column for males not females, and John isn`t on the 1841 census, she then dos`nt appear with the rest of the family in 1851 when John does, admittedly she could have married, so will go and have a look for her...

EDIT...The only Jane Roath marriage between 1837 and 1871 is to a George Cannons in Alton Hants in 1845.... { when Jane would only have been about 13 or 14 anyway}... think this is them in 1851, so definetly not your Jane..


CANNONS, George Head Married M 26 1825 Agr Lab
Medsted
Hampshire VIEW
CANNONS, Jane Wife Married F 30 1821
Farringdon
Hampshire VIEW
CANNONS, Edwin Son M 4 1847
Medsted
Hampshire VIEW
CANNONS, Robert Son M 0 (11 MOS) 1851
Medsted
Hampshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1679 Folio:
25 Page:
16

Registration District:
Alton Sub District:
Alton Enumeration District:
2 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Medsted Municipal Borough:
Address:
Common, Medsted County:
Hampshire

EDIT...Also when you look at the baptism record for ST Phillips it says that Jane was baptised on 30th Dec. 1834, and Richard not until 22nd Aug 1836, making it look as though Jane was at least 20 months older than Richard,{ presuming he wasn`t already born when Jane was Baptised., as surely if he was he would have been baptised on the same day?} But on the 1841 census Richard shows as the same age as Jane, I think in this case the enumerator rounded the childrens ages to the nearest 5 years, when in fact they were only meant to do that with adults,as in 1851 Richard is 2 years older than John which ties in with all the following census entries and their death entries.

So I think Jane and John James as per the baptism records from st Philips died, and your John was born c1837/1838.

Nicky

This looks like John Roaths death entry.... age still consistent with an 1837/38 birth...

Deaths Mar 1920 (99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROATH John 82 Aston 6d 716

and Richards

Deaths Dec 1923 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROATH Richard 87 Birmingham 6d 274



Nicky

Just a thought but have you succesfully traced all his siblings through the census?........ Bit of a long shot i know, but could it be possible that he was baptised Richard for instance but known as John?

clutching at straws here, but really just trying to explore all possibilities...


Nicky

Yes i took another look for the elusive John Roath in 1841 and like you still couldn`t find him...

Even if he was born c1840, it dosn`t mean his birth would be registered as it wasn`t compulsary, well actually it was up to the registrar to make sure all births were registered, but I suspect if you lived in a rural area there was less chance of that happening.

The onus was put on the parents to register a birth from 1875 onwards, with the threat of a fine if they didn`t, despite this some children still wer`nt registered....


Nicky

I've trawled ad infinitum, Nicky, and my one thought was that Jane Roath might have been pregnant with him as he shows up as 40 on the 1881 census.
But if that was the case his birth should show up on the registers and I have looked and looked. If only I can get his birth cert that should be the final proof.
But he said he was 20 on his marriage cert in 1857
and he was down as age13 in 1851
sigh!
jill

Iv`e got census access again and did a good search earlier for John Roath born c1837 ,tried all sorts of spellings etc, but drew a blank.

Will have another look later...


Nicky

Thanks for that Nicky,
I have been looking at all the stuff I have and I saw the 1841 family but where was John? The spelling variations are getting confusing!
'My' George Frederick Roath was obviously named after the Wales one and was born in 1857 - I have the cert, son of john and Rosanna Roaf (another spelling variation)
John was 20 on his marriage cert in Aug 1857. and 31 on the 1871 census
There is a John, brother of my George age 43 on the 1901 census.
I think they must have fallen on hard times as there is a George Roath age 60 on the 1901 census in the Birmingham Workhouse on Spring Hill.
He had been living with his brother Richard on the 1881 when he was 40

I wonder where John was in 1841?
Jill

Heres the transcription of the family in 1841..


ROOTH, James M 30 1811 VIEW
ROOTH, Jane F 30 1811 VIEW
ROOTH, Mary F 9 1832 VIEW
ROOTH, Richard M 5 1836 VIEW
ROOTH, Jane M 5 1836 VIEW
ROOTH, George M 0 (11 months) 1841 Flintshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1413 Book/Folio:
5/47 Page:
5

Registration District:
Holywell Sub District:
Holywell Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Holywell Municipal Borough:
Holywell Address:
Spring Bank, Holywell, Greenfield County:
Flintshire

Nicky

Well this looks like Georges baptism

GEORGE FREDERICK ROATH Pedigree
Male


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 05 JUL 1840

Christening: 26 JUL 1840 Holywell, Flint, Wales

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JAMES ROATH Family
Mother: JANE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Nicky

Don`t quote me on this ....but, i think on a childs death cert. it gives the parents names.

Though I don`t think that 1841 death could be John James as IF he died I would imagine it was before the other John was born c1837, I can`t imagine they would have had 2 children called John alive at the same time!

As for not being able to find John c1837 baptism, I would imagine it is in the same batch as George Charles and William the younger children.

Now you just need to find John Roath age approx. 3 on the 1841 census, maybe hes with grandparents?.

Nicky

Sorry I didn't reply Nicky, but I've been dealing with OH in hospital all day!
I did take on board your suggestion that there was another John and I have been looking for him but haven't spent enough time yet. as he must have died between 1834 and 1837/8 when 'my' John appears to have been born.
I thought I might join the Birmingham Family History society to get someone to do a 'look up' for me on the Parish registers.
I found the family on the 1841 census still in Wales with:
John Roath 30 Wire drawer
Jane Roath 30
Mary 8 (or 9)
Richard 5
Jane 5
George 11 mth
all not born in county except George.
John wasn't there but there was 'a' John Roath died in Birmingham in Mar 1841
Does it give the mothers name on the death cert or just the informant?
Jill
Jane 5

Glad you`ve managed to piece it all together Jill......amazing how another pair of eyes picks up something you`ve missed...

Your still mentioning the John James baptism in 1833 not tying in with your John c1837, prehaps you missed my posting before where i suggested that John James died before 1837 so the next son was called John... { your John} hopefully..


Nicky

I'm home!
Thanks for all the work, Nicky. That is the family I thought it might be but the John in that family was born in 1838 so it still doesn't tie in with John b 1833
BUT.... you clever thing! Fancy me not looking a the address on the cert. John's address on his marriage cert is Grosvenor St West!!!!!:)
So you've cracked it for me - and such a simple thing as well! That'll teach me! THis family is certainly MY one even though John isn't in the house on the census day. it has also linked up the Wales connection.
got to go and look through all my census returns...... I don't know why they were in N Wales but I have found a death for a James roath (Jane's husband?) in Holywell in 1847 so it looks as if she returned 'home'.
Thanks for that Nicky. I am trying to link all the Roaths up as the names are repeated in all the families, especially my ggrandad George Frederick (as Johns son was)
cheers
Jill
PS Silly me - John was married by 1861

Think this may be Janes death


Deaths Sep 1873 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROATH Jane 66 Aston 6d 173



I found a Jane Roath on the 1871 census age 64, which i think is her, but couldn`t look at it, if it is her the death entry above fits in.....

Also found a Jane Morris baptism in 1807 at St Philips on the IGI which I think could be her if the 1830 marriage is correct.


Nicky