Genealogy Chat

Yes Sue I would say there is a 99% chance of it being right. I always feel for whatever reason that there is always the Very remotest chance when we make these dississions that there is room for the eliment of doubt. Seems pretty conclusive this time tho. As you say the element of the army seems very prevelant....... Not sure but think when I was looking before on census someone was a bandsman so dismissed as wrong... Will have another look later.
Margaret
FreeBMD put Hampshire

Thanks for the vote of confidence Margaret! I've now found the other 2 births on Ancestry - had a senior moment there I fear! Would be interested re the Bandsman as I know nothing of that one - either!

Sue

Too bad about that birth cert.

It might be worth getting that Scottish cert to see Ellen/Helen's maiden name. Mary Ann could be under different surname.

Rose

Thanks for that Joan - it certainly sounds like the right one. I think I'll ring GRO tomorrow and see if they can help without the full registration - I've done that before and altho it costs more than ordering online I have found them to be enormously helpful.

Thanks for your input too Rose, but I don't think I could stand another change of surname! This wretched woman!

I'll phone Portsmouth tomorrow as I'm not working and try to get Mary Ann's birth cert.

Just in case I have no more news for a while - a very Happy Christmas to everyone who has been so helpful - it is much appreciated!

Best wishes, Sue

I have now received 2 very good certs! Mary Ann Walker was born on 28 March 1853 in Portsmouth. The address was Collingwood place - possibly Barracks? Her mother was Ellen Walker formerly Minto and father was Andrew Walker, a Private in the 93rd Reg't. This tallies with his occupation ( tho deceased ) of Drillmaster on Mary's Marriage cert. The 93rd was in fact the Sutherland Highlanders who embarked from Portsmouth to the Crimea in 1854. Many of them were killed at the Battle of Alma ( they were the original Thin Red Line ) and I do wonder if Andrew was killed there. I can't find a definite Death Cert for him as it's such a common name. If this is so, perhaps Ellen had gone down to Portsmouth with the Regiment ( surely not just to wave him off! ) and maybe she returned to Scotland after his death.

The marriage cert is for Edinburgh, May 1859 and gives Helen Walker as a 26 yr old widow (Phew! ) and John Hebden as a 42 yr old Batchelor Soldier. The cert is very difficult to read as in a very ornate, but blotchy copperplate and both their addresses are the same - Pie-------. However I've found one of the witnesses in 1851 as a soldier at Piershill Barracks in Edinburgh so that seems to be about right. At that time Andrew Walker was an unmarried 28 yr old soldier also in Barracks there so all seem connected by the Army.

I'm not familiar with Scottish marriage certs so a bit puzzled by the details of the couple's parents. For John it just gives Sarah Hebden, but as it should apparently be his mother's maiden name does that mean she wasn't married to a Mr Hebden? For Helen it also just gives a mother - Mary possibly Wraighton and again no father mentioned. so I wonder if they only listed living parents? I've looked for Helen Minto in the censuses hoping to find a mother Mary, but the best one i can find in 1841 just gives the mother's name as Mrs Minto! Gee thanks! I have found a very likely marriage for Helen Minto and Andrew Walker in Feb 1852 at the Barony, Lanark so that's another cert I need!

So hopefully with all your help we've solved the puzzle of the multiple surnames and I'm delighted to have added so much to my tree.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year,

Best wishes, Sue

Hi Sue..... WOW.... What a lovely start to your New Year.....

Lot to take in.... Just having read all the info...
tried to look on IGI for these names but for some reason it is saying URL error please contact administrator????

Will look later. perhaps they have a blip.

Happy New year to you & yours.

Margaret

Great news Sue!

And you also found Andrew in 1851 so you know a little more about him.

Thanks for the update.

Rose

P.S. How's your uncle taking all this?

Wonder if this is Ellen/Helen?

HELEN MINTO
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Hobkirk, Roxburgh, Scotland


Parents:
Father: WILLIAM MINTO

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

C117904

Thankyou Margaret and Rose for the continued support! My uncle says the whole thing is rubbish, as Mary Ann was definitely Hebden as in his sister's middle name and in any case what interest is it to anybody what happened all those years ago!! He thinks I should give all this up now as I've wasted quite enough time and money! He knows loads about the family ( whether right or wrong! ) and will answer a direct question, but volunteer absolutely nothing. If I tell you that I spent months trying to get info from him about my grandmother and her family and struggled to find the basic facts - only for him to say eventually that actually he had photos of her grandparents on the back of which she had written a detailed family tree - dates, maiden names etc. you will understand how mad I get with him! Still- he is in his late 80's and a very forthright Yorkshireman!

That could well be Helen, but i have found another Helen Minto born same place and date and contacted the tree owner on here only to find she isn't my Helen. So there are at least 2 of them around! I am debating joining Scotlands People as pretty cheap short term, and, if I'm reading this right - you can actually access and download certs on line.Thank goodness Santa was generous this year!

Regards Sue

The one I found on IGI seems a liitle older than your Helen.

Using the same batch number there are sibling Jesse, John Archibald and Betty.

This would be the family in 1841:

1841 Scotland Census
about Jessy Minto
Name: Jessy Minto
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Roxburghshire, Scotland

Civil parish: Hobkirk
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Forkins
Parish Number: 790
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Minto 50
Janel Minto 40
George Minto 20
Jessy Minto 15
Helen Minto 12
Archibald Minto 10
Robert Minto 8
Margaret Minto 6
Peter Minto 4
Agnes Minto 10 Mo
James Minto 10 Mo

Rose

Thanks Rose, I think I will send another message to the lady who has the 'wrong ' Helen in her tree, as hers was born c. 1830 in Roxburgh so this could well be that one showing up again. I only asked her to check who Helen married as didn't know of her background, so will ask her about parents etc.

Will let you know - again!

Sue

You asked about Scottish marriage certificates. I can confirm that on the ones I have, even when a parent is deceased their details are entered. (I suppose if both parents were dead and the father had died when the child was young, there is the possibility that they wouldn't know his name.)

Hi Sue... My father was a "forthright Yorkshireman too" so know exactly what you mean...... Have you managed to persuede him to let you have a look at these photos etc..... If I understand you correctly it is your grandmother who wrote out the family tree, so it follows that she wanted future generations to know. You may find that although your uncle denies it, that she did know. Knowing it was complex decided to make a note of it all... As he responds to direct questions perhaps a "Can I see these photos please." or something along those lines. Could say that you would like to see if there are any family likenesses etc.
Regards Margaret.

Thankyou Janet, seems rather odd then that we only have the names of the 2 mothers. Even more so for the bridegroom as his mother is entered with the same surname as he has rather than a different maiden name, so perhaps she wasn't married? This family have been a real nightmare - thank goodness for all the kind people on here!

Yes Margaret - I did manage to get the photos off him ( plus several other very useful ones ) and copied both sides of them. Sadly doesn't help us on this quest as it is the paternal side we are after, whereas my sainted Grandma only knew of her side of the family. I would love the originals but he insisted on having them all back to be chucked into a drawer somewhere! Mind you, I did manage to have a sneaky look in the drawer so found my grandfather's Military Medal and original citation, which he had 'forgotten' all about! Men!

Sue

Rose, I have contacted the lady who has Helen in her tree and unfortunately she doesn't have the parentage. However i do think the dob is just too early as the censuses, and more important, the marriage cert all point to her being born 1834/5.

My next step must be to send off for Helen's 1st marriage cert and see what that says.

Thanks, Sue

I have now received the details of what I hope is Helen's 1st marriage. Unfortunately it is just an entry in the church records, rather than a full cert so not as useful. The marriage was on 5th Feb 1852, between Andrew Gardner, labourer and Helen Minto, both of Colton. It took place at Colton Church,Glasgow, Parish of Barony,Lanarkshire. So with no details of age, parents etc it's hard to be positive it was them, and of course an occupation of soldier would have helped as he was one in the 1851 census I believe and in March 1853 when Mary Ann was born in Portsmouth. Not too sure about Glasgow either. On the plus side, the accompanying letter from the Scot. GRO said that this was the only marriage found for Helen Minto between 1850 - 54.

So I'm not totally convinced It's the right one - any one like to comment please?

Regards Sue

Hi Sue

Not sure if I'm missing something here?

I thought the 1st marriage for Helen Minto was to Andrew Walker not Gardner?

Mary

Sorry - not paying attention here! Yes, it was Andrew Walker, and that is the extract they sent me, but for some reason their letter said Andrew Gardner. Obviously just a clerical error as I ordered and received the Walker /Minto marriage. For some reason I typed in Gardner on here instead of Walker! Blame it on old age, but thanks for pointing it out anyway!

Sue

Hi Sue

I was just checking LOL.

I have a whole load of Walker's from Edinburgh (about 12 of them) and not one of their births were registered! They just don't want to make life easy for us do they! lol.

Are you sending off to SGRO for these records? It's a lot cheaper to get them online.

Mary

Yes, Mary - I did phone them to order this one as I wasn't sure if anything even existed for this early date. Cost me £13 so I won't be doing it this way very often! You say your Walkers were all Edinburgh, which is where all mine were until this one in flipping Glasgow! Not a million miles away but casts another doubt in my mind. Sadly I don't even know Andrew's father's name yet to check if we have any common ground here.

Thanks anyway,

Sue