Genealogy Chat

Could anyone tell me please if a Death Cert. from 1910 would give details of Birthplace and name/occupation of a long deceased husband? I'm chasing my GGGmother whose details are proving to be very elusive. I'm pretty sure I have found her death but don't really want to pay out for yet another cert if it's not going to help.

Thankyou, Sue

It wont give her birthplace but a married woman's death cert usually says wife or widow of and the husbands name

May give name of deceased husband but not birthdate or place of birth...
Usually date & place of death. name of deceased cause of death age if known so may be a guess. name & address of informant......depends on what the informant knew.

Thankyou both - it's really her birthplace I'm after - details of husband were just confirmation that I have the right lady. Oh well - back to the drawing board!

Thanks anyway, Sue

Sue have you found her on the 1901 or previous census.... that shoud give place of birth

Yes Margaret I've found her on all the censuses, but that's the problem as the 1881, 91 and 01 give her as being born in Scotland, which ties in with family knowledge. However the 1861 and 71 have her born in America or some weirdly transcribed variation thereof!

If anyone is bored on a wet Sunday afternoon - the lady in question is Helen Hebden - date and place of birth and maiden name to be decided!

1901 she is in Sheffield aged 68 with daughter

1891 she is in Mickleover Derbys. aged 58 with daughter ( transcribed asHelena )

1881 she is in Sheffield aged 47 with daughter ( transcribed as Helen Ketden ) - all these give pob as Scotland.

1871 (as Ellen Hibdon) in Sheffield aged 42 with husband John but birthplace transcribed as USA NB Hanwick.

1861 she is in Hampton Barracks aged 29 with husband John and birthplace now transcribed as North Britain Rorborough.

I can live with the Ellen/Helen/Helena and the ages aren't too far out, but the birthplace really is strange. I considered a death for Ellen and remarriage to Helen but can't find evidence for that. I wondered if NB might be New Brunswick, but no Hanwick or Rorborough there. Also considered Alnwick Northumberland as being close to the Scots. Border,

I'm sure I'm following the right family as her daughter's details are consistently correct throughout.

All ideas welcomed!

Sue

Thanks Joan, all are distinct possibilities but the actual handwritten 1871 says 'America' written in full which does sound outside the usual sort of errors they made? Wish they'd had more knowledgeable enumerators - but then a lot of people still think that the North is abroad!!!

Sue

Hi Sue..... Just a thought....... New Brunswick is a city in the state of New Jersey. ssoooo Hanwick could be an area of that city. ???!!!
New Brunswick is also a province in Canada.
am having trouble finding the lady on all but 1871 census.... will carry on & get back to you if I find anything. The image is really bad... Can you give me birth years of husband & Daughter please. Thanks.

Hi Margaret - yes, it is a very faint image - typical! Husband John Hebden was born c 1810 Greenwich. Daughter Mary Ann was born 1853 Portsmouth. She shows up as Mary Ann Bird from 1881 onwards.

thanks Sue

okay Sue.... So far have found helen/ellen on 1881/91/01 as you say with daughter married to Henry Bird.... Not convinced about 1871..... John is much older than Helen/Ellen..although of course very possible...

... perhaps 1st. you need to buy some certs. I would start with daughter Mary Ann... That will give you Helen's maiden name.... Then marriage to find both fathers & age of John.....

1881 says helen born Edinburgh , Scotland.
Died 1910 age 75 so that makes her born c 1833. (FreeBMD)
Poss Marriage....
John Hebden to Ellen Milner 1849 Selby. 23 524.(FreeBMD)
Maybe someone who has a subs to Scotlands people may be able to look up her birth for you.

Hope this helps...... Please feel free to PM me if you prefer

Regards Margaret

Maybe Hawick, Roxburgh, Scotland is where she's born.

Hi Margaret,

i totally share your doubts about John's age in 1871, but the clincher for me is their daughter again whose details are spot on. Surely just too much of a coincidence to have all her details applying to another family too?

Thanks too mgnv - your suggestions also make sense! Except for that dratted American bit!

Have to go off now to cook dinner and stave off a family revolt by starving husband! Will check back in later.

Thankyou all again, the help is much appreciated.

Sue

Sue,

Some certs would help.

The daugher is Mary Ann Walker. Check FreeBMD and IGI for the marriage.

Here's Helen's marriage to John:

From IGI:
JOHN HEBDEN

Marriages:
Spouse: HELEN WALKER
Marriage: 30 MAY 1859 Leith, Midlothian, Scotland


Seeing as she was 18 in 1870, this is probably her birth registration but there is another one around the same time:

Births Jun 1852
Walker Mary Ann Portsea 2b 332

You really need to start by ordering one of the certs for Mary Ann's children.

Rose

The marriage Rose found is on scotlandspeople but not under Hebdon - it only comes up if you use soundex with his surname.

The marriage cert will give you more info than an English one - both parents' names and both father's occupations.

Sorry for the delay but I've been at work and missed all the fun!

The illegitimacy was a total surprise, esp as my aunt was give the middle name of Hebden in memory of her dear Grannie ( Mary Ann) Hebden! I have just spoken to my aged uncle who is very surprised and adamant she was Hebden not Walker!

At least this explains why we couldn't find a non existent Birth Cert for Hebden or a Hebden/Bird marriage. My uncle thinks he may have his Dad's Birth Cert tucked away somewhere, but if not, I will send off for that, as well as the marriage cert for his parents - now Bird/Walker!

Thankyou so much Rose for somehow cracking the name puzzle - I'm lost in admiration after all my months of searching! Thankyou to every one else who helped too, esp Margaret who has been pming me with ideas.

I will send off for the certs and let you all know the outcome.

Regards Sue

Hope your aunt isn't too disappointed.

Mary Ann might not be illegitimate. Perhaps Helen/Ellen was a widow when she married John Hebdon?

Rose

My aunt actually died a few years ago - perhaps just as well as she was always very proud of having her 2 grandmothers commemorated by her own middle names! It may well be that Helen was a widow, but I have an awful feeling about this!!!! Hopefully the various certs will clear it all up - now i know how I'll be spending my Christmas money - again!
Sue

I have now received some certs - with mixed results! The birth cert for my grandfather is fine, and gives the maiden name of his mother as Mary Ann Hebden. Pretty much as expected, but prob not legally correct.

The marriage cert for Henry Bird and Mary Ann Walker ( Sheffield 1870 ) seems to be ok too. The groom is 20, son of William Bird ( correct ) and the address is just ' Barracks ' . Both William and Henry are described as Bandsmen - I knew William was in the Army ( tho not found as a bandsman before ) but hadn't heard anything of Henry being in the Army. He was however a very keen amateur musician, playing in Works Bands and Orchestras so feasible. Mary Ann is 18, daughter of Andrew Walker ( deceased ) who is described as a Drillmaster - Army connection again? The witnesses were William Bird and Louisa Jane Rhodes. I've found a young lady of this name in Sheffield in 1871 and 1881 whose father was a 'Pensioner ' - Army again? Louisa was born in Edinburgh Castle ( her siblings all over the Uk ) and as William Bird ( and family ) were stationed in Edinburgh Castle in 1861 they could be family friends from their Army days. So I think the marriage cert checks out in several ways - unless it's just wishful thinking!

Unfortunately the birth cert for Mary Ann Walker, Portsmouth 1852 was wrong. Her parents were George Thomas Walker ( a Draper ) and Sarah Ann. I've found this family on other censuses and they seem well settled in that area, so don't think it's my mary Ann. Rose - you mentioned finding another possible birth around that time - I can't find one so could you please give me the details?

Thanks everyone for the interest,

Regards Sue

Hi Sue Some very positive results then...2 out of 3 can't be bad....

Now births. There are 3 around that time. Portsmouth came under Portsea Island for registration purposes for a while ..Then changed to porstmouth.

Mary Ann Walker Dec Q.1851 Portsea I. (Island) 7 181
" " Jun.Q 1852. Portsea I. 2b 332 ( The one you sent for I think)
" " Jun.Q 1853 Portsea I. 2b 341.

Now you know fathers Name. & occupation.. give that when you apply... Will help eliminate.... Local Office
Registry Office,
Milldam House,
Burnaby Rd,
Portsmouth,
PO1 3AF
Tele:- 023 9282 9041. Good luck

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

Thanks very much for that - why can't I find them then???? I think I'll ring the Office and see if they can help to eliminate one of the 2 choices before ordering again. Presumably you're in agreement over the marriage cert being right and not just me making suppositions fit facts!

Once again - many thanks,

Sue