Genealogy Chat

Hi,
If my great gran's marriage and death cert dont say a middle name for her will that definately mean she didnt have one? a im trying to find her birth records.

Thanks
Becky

Hi Becky

Not necessarily, people forgot middle names, certainly by death, or it might be that the name on her marriage cert WAS her middle name.

You might get a hint if her siblings have middle names.

Margaret

Thanks, i know her name was definately alice ellis (so it couldnt be her middle name) as it said on the marriage cert and death record. I dont know they names of any of her siblings as yet tho.

Have you got anything to cross-reference with? For instance, if you've got her marriage certificate that should have her age and her father's name and occupation on it. So, if she was born before 1901, you might be able to match an Alice Ellis on the census with a father of the right name (and possibly occupation).

She could have had a middle name and dropped it - in the case of death certificates, the information was only as good as what the informant knew. (I've got an Edith Elizabeth Atkinson Grayson in my tree but her death certificate reference is just "Edith Grayson" - I only matched her up because I had her birth date from a baptism record) But with a marriage certificate, I would think she would use her full name (unless she had been named, say, Mary Alice but was always known as Alice and didn't know her full name etc).

Have you got a rough age, area and father's name for her?

Im just trying to narrow down which ones she could be as she was born after 1901 in jan 1908 (not sure of the place of birth so it makes it very hard!) as she was 17 in 1925 when she was married. And I know her father was called albert edward ellis who was a ag labourer. Im trying to find her on the 1911 census at the moment with not much luck.

Well, if she was born in January 1908 she should have been registered (only "should", of course!) in the March qtr of 1908. (Although, saying that, she could have been nearly 18 at the time of marriage - but presumably she had her father's consent, otherwise she may have had to lie about her age to get married without his permission and her being 17 doesn't suggest that.)

Just thought - whereabouts did she get married and is there an address on the marriage certificate for her?

Is she the Alice Ellis who married Christopher Cunningham in Hull in the September quarter of 1925?

Edit - I am guessing she is, as the death of Alice Cunningham (b. 14 Jan 1908) was registered in Hull in January 1996.

There are a few babies called Alice Ellis registered in the first quarter of 1908 - one in Birkenhead (Alice Beatrice), one in Bermondsey (Alice Maud), one in Eccleshall Bierlow which is Notts/Derbys (Alice Isabel), one in Nottingham (Alice Mary), two in Stoke upon Trent (Ethel Alice and Gertrude Alice), one in Sheffield (Ida Alice) and one in West Ham in Essex (Alice Nellie).

If she happened to be from the area where she got married, I would suspect the Sheffield, Stoke, Nottingham and Eccleshall are more likely to be - but not necessarily - her.

Do you know if she had any older/younger siblings? If we get a rough idea as when her parents married it might be able to narrow down the area. I've just found a marriage in 1900 for an Albert Edward in West Ham but it isn't necessarily the right one.

Siblings born after 1911 would be brilliant!

Did great gran die after 1969 ?
If so, her birthplace should show on her death certificate....if the informant knew that information.

Re names
People were often registered at death with their 'known' name.
A direct ancestor of mine died as Jane, although she had been registered at birth as Silvey ( bapt.as Jane Silvia , married as Sylvia Jane)

Gwyn

Kate and everyone else

Eccleshall Bierlow is Sheffield, South Yorkshire.

Margaret

Yes she is the alice ellis who married christopher cunningham 1925 Hull (her address was a hull address so im guessing the family ended up moving to hull too) but she wasnt born there.
I was searching on the 1911 census earlier and i did find one for sheffield with the father as arthur edward ellis age 35 and daughter alice ellis born 1908 but cant be sure if she was the right one.
And I dont have her birth cert just what i found on the records maybe i should get a copy if it might show the birthplace also i have no names of her siblings.

Looking at what you just put, I think I would be tempted to perhaps get the record of the 1911 census - if her dad is 35 then, chances are he and the mother had had children before they had Alice. Also it will give you her birthplace and that of her parents so you'll be able to narrow down which of the birth records for babies called Alice Ellis are most likely to be the right one.

From the 1911 census it looks as though the Alices I've marked with * have a father called Albert:

Births Mar 1908
Ellis Alice Beatrice Birkenhead 8a 528
**Ellis Alice Isabel Ecclesall B. 9c 470
Ellis Alice Mary Nottingham 7b 424
**Ellis Alice Maud St. Olave 1d 237
Ellis Alice Nellie W. Ham 4a 14 This one died

Rose

This 1911 record i was talking about from sheffield-

ELLIS, ALBERT ED HEAD MARRIED 14 M 36 1874 CARTER SHEFFIELD
ELLIS, SARAH ANN WIFE MARRIED 14 F 33 PICKERING YORKSHIRE
ELLIS, SUSANNAH DAUGHTER SINGLE F 11 SCHOOL SHEFFIELD
ELLIS, VIOLET DAUGHTER SINGLE F 7 SCHOOL SHEFFIELD
ELLIS, ALICE DAUGHTER SINGLE F 3 SHEFFIELD
ELLIS, MABLE DAUGHTER SINGLE F 4 MONTHS SHEFFIELD
Address 49 CHARLTON ST SHEFFIELD

Also I did find a death in hull for: Albert E Ellis age 65 hull 9d 391 1939 oct/nov/dec. If it were him it would match with the age here.
But id imagine it must be the wrong family as there is no one born in sheffield.

I would say it is perhaps Alice Isabel? There is a baby, Violet Alvina Ellis, born in about December of 1903 in Rotherham which is not too far from Sheffield.

I wonder if this is their marriage?

Dec 1900 Goole registration district
>Albert Ellis
Walter Gill
Elma Carrie Payne
>Sarah Ann Sutcliff

You definately have to have an open mind concerning names.
Back through each census,my mothers grandma was called Elizabeth.I could not find her birth registered anywhere.Told my mother,and she asked "who is Elizabeth"after I had explained...she told me that her name was Susanna Elizabeth...sure enough ,found reg...and ordered certificate.
The nearest death Ive found is a Susan...so I will probably end up ordering that one to check.

There are three alice ellis born in ecclesall b but ive found it cant be either of them - alice ellis (she died the same year 1908) and alice isabel ellis (her father was named george ) alice irene (father called isreal)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This closest names to albert edward ellis that ive found on 1911 census

Alice Maud ellis St. Olave bermondsey (has albert edwin ellis as her father- but he was born 1879 as albert edwin ellis not albert edward)

ELLIS, ALBERT EDWIN HEAD MARRIED (1903) 8 years age 32 LABOURER UNEMPLOYED ST PANCRAS
ELLIS(nee smith), EDITH FLORENCE WIFE age 32 W R (im assuming maybe Worcester??)
ELLIS, ALBERT THOMAS SON SINGLE age 7 SCHOOL BERMONDSEY
ELLIS, JOSEPH HENRY SON SINGLE age 5 SCHOOL BERMONDSEY
ELLIS, ALICE MAUD DAUGHTER SINGLE age 3 BERMONDSEY
ELLIS, ARTHUR SON SINGLE age 1 BERMONDSEY