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Lookie lookie!

Okay, I'm not going to do it after all. You want your own fun.

http://www.familysearch.org
select "advanced search"
select International Genealogy Index

Search for Caroline Mann born 1823 (her approx DOB per the 1851 census) +/- 5 years, British Isles, England.

Then copy what you find into the thread!

But hold on a minute ... if Caroline is visiting Mann family in 1851, then was she double-counted, or have we maybe got the wrong people with son John Mathers?

Oh dear Kathryn you get me all excited in one breath then drop me down in the next. I have a feeling John Mathers who I think turned out to be Mathews by the way was not my John at least I don't think so. John Mathews turned out to be the other Caroline's child to her then husband before she married John Easton Onley.

Another problem is James Onley who I shall send you permission to look at my tree, he is the father of Sarah Onley yes Onley she is the wife of the 2nd or 1st depends which way you look at it. Charles Ernest, he is her father I have to now work out how he is related to the family well I don't have to but I've started it so now I must finish it even though it's kind of off my tree but is it?
You know you are fantastic Kathryn I'm now going to find the information that you gave me at least I hope so. Fingers crossed. I'll let you know how I go.

E xx

Good morning all,

Forgive me but I have got myself lost now under all my bits of paper (tee hee !), so I am posting the 1851 details below:

Name: John Mann
Age: 69
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1782
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: Bisley
Ecclesiastical parish: Chalford
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England


Household Members: Name Age
George Lewis 16
Hannah Mann 56
James Mann 19
John Mann 69
Caroline Onley 27
Edward James Onley 3
John Onley 33


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1964; Folio: 431; Page: 16; GSU roll: 87364.

This is now the correct family for your birth cert - I believe the John + Caroline we have been following is the WRONG couple.

Dea x

P.S. - Which James is it that you are querying?

THIS Caroline had a brother James c 1831 and a sister Elizabeth Irene c 1830. - both christened in Berkely

Dea x

Good morning Dea,

How are you today? You're at it bright & early assuming you are in the UK.

Wow you are both marvellous thankyou I do so appreciate it. Hey Kathryn I found that on Family Search thankyou. Why do I need her marriage certificate? Told you I was thick.
James Onley born hang on I'll be back I'll go & give you permission to see my tree wont be a tick.

L

Erica x

This now looks likely to be 'your' John Onley on 1841:

about John Onley
Name: John Onley
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Male
Where born: Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: Cheltenham
Hundred: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England


Household Members: Name Age
John Onley 20
Samuel Onley 55
Samuel Onley 25
Sarah Onley 55


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 353; Book: 3; Civil Parish: Cheltenham; County: Gloucestershire; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 35; Page: 21; Line: 11; GSU roll: 288767.

Dea x

Probable marriage:

Samuel Onley married Sarah Calcott - 31st Oct, 1811 - Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.

Dea x

Sorry about that OK it's all done you both now have permission to see my tree just so that you both know what I'm talking about. You see I do like to put a bit down about everyone & especially this one as it's curious don't you think? Or do you think I should just leave it alone?
Now then so how do I find out if Jno. Samuel had any siblings? Oh don't worry I go to the census' that's right isn't it? Oh but I don't know where to look I bought some credits with Find My Past & looked at the address where Jno. Samuel was when he was born & nothing comes up on any of them for Onley which is weird oh no it's not they may have just been visiting, see told you I was thick.
I have really appreciated all the help you both have given me if it ends here I do hope that we can keep intouch. Although I have your email addresses I shall not use them without your permission I don't invade peoples privacy.

OK we are having a storm here now so I'd best go I do hope I hear from you both again. Thank you

Best wishes

E xx

What Erica found in the IGI:


CAROLINE CHARITY MANN
Christening: 19 JAN 1823 Berkeley, Gloucester, England
Father: JOHN MANN
Mother: HANNAH
Batch No.: C016485

What I didn't explain is how you then click on the Batch number to find related births in the same parish and time period, by searching for surname only, e.g. These are the Mann births to John and Hannah:

Mann, British Isles
Father: John , Mother: Hannah
Batch Number: C016485

1. JAMES MANN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 09 NOV 1831 Berkeley, Gloucester, England
2. CAROLINE CHARITY MANN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 19 JAN 1823 Berkeley, Gloucester, England
3. ELIZABETH IRENE MANN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 31 JAN 1830 Berkeley, Gloucester, England


... Oh. I guess that's what Dea just said. ;)


So now, these are our people in 1851, from Dea's post:

George Lewis 16
Hannah Mann 56
James Mann 19
John Mann 69
Caroline Onley 27
Edward James Onley 3
John Onley 33 - Inland Revenue Officer


*not* the household with John Mathers in it. (John must have settled down after acquiring a family -- although inland revenue might have involved travel.)

This still leaves us without John Samuel, right?

But there's no possible doubt that those are his parents -- Caroline Charity Mann and John Onley.

Here's the child who is with them:

ame: Edwin James Onley
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Cheltenham
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 204


Okay ... there was no John Onley born in Cheltenham 1844-46ish. But in the 1851 census there is (yes, it's Onley; I seriously doubt that Auley is a name, and there are no BMDs for that surname in Gloucestershire ever):


Name: John Auley
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Samuel
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Household schedule number: 173

George Auley 4 Mo
Helen Auley 5
John Auley 7
Maria Auley 9
Samuel Auley 36
Samuel Auley 12
Sarah Auley 37
Sophia Collinson 29
Rebecca Perrie 18


Note the head of household's name: Samuel. A brother of your John perhaps? John was born in Cheltenham.

Was John Samuel maybe also visiting, with his cousins? and just got recorded as part of the household ...

Oh yes -- what do you want the marriage certificate for?

Ages and father's names. Of course, now you seem to have Caroline's. But you need John's. That's how you do what you were asking -- go back beyond the censuses. That's the first step, the marriage certificate that names the father, because John wasn't ever living with his parents for a census, and was born before 1837 of course. And there's no birth for him in parish records in the IGI.

By the way,

Samuel snr. (the one married to Sarah - was born in
Ombersley, Worcester - christened 31 March 1784 - parents John Onley + Hannah.

Dea x

It's got me beat. Auley ey I wonder. As I think I have said before I have found a death for a Samuel ONLEY 66 in Stroud in 1858.
In my detective work I was telling you about I found: 1861 census; Caroline 1824 in HSC 75
Edward James 1848
John 1810
So my detective work did pay off but I just didn't know how. You are so incredible both of you. Have you been doing your trees for very long? So in answer to my own stupid question now I know why I need the marriage certificate of Caroline & John to confirm her parentage right? All this information you are giving me is just so wonderful I can't thank you enough.

E xx

Oh duh, Dea. There's me guessing that Samuel Onley (Jr) in 1851 might be a brother of John, and there he is in the 1841 household you provided. Well hey, I guessed right. ;)

Erica -- Auley/Onley. I can send you the image ... later ... but think about the u/n in old handwriting, and how a capital O joined to the next letter would look like a capital A written as a giant small "a". Onley ... Auley. It does look like Auley, but it isn't.

And since there's no record of the birth of a John Onley or a John Auley that matches the 5-yr-old John in that household, I'm going to stick with my theory that he's your boy ... for the moment. They called him plain John because they already had a Samuel (III) in the house. ;)

KathrynB.

Just one 'tiny' thing bothering me !!

- Forget the above thing which bothered me - I followed it and....!! - I HAVE FOUND JOHN: !!

1851 Census:

He is with 'granny + grandad:

Name: Samuel Auby
Age: 66
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1785
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Boreley, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England


Household schedule number: 147
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Auby 66
Sarah Auby 67
********John Criley 5 ***********
Adelaide Niblett 20


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1973; Folio: 30; Page: 52; GSU roll: 87373-87374.

Dea XXXXXXXXXXXX

OK who said something wrong one has been deleted by the powers that be. If you would like to repeat it by all means send it to my email address although I gave you aapt the best one to use for me is the hotmail one I gave that to you too didn't I Dea?
Yes of course Kathryn I do indeed have her family parentage so DO need his birth certificate. Right ok got that.
Now then sorry but Jno. Samuel was born in Newington now I saw someone put that someone else was born in Newington earlier but can't find it again I was just wondering if this were a relative. Can either of you recall saying anything about someone Onley born in Newington.
In my scribblings I have found a John & Hannah living in Lancs. I think that was in the 1861 census. No that can't be right or can it? Also in my scribbles I have a Caroline in HSN 109 with an Ellen Mann (2) also in 109 these were found in the 1851 census. I also found in the 1881 sensus a Samuel aged 66 retired Architect & Surveyor, woops a contradiction there as I had said I found a death certificate for a Samuel who was born in 1785. Hang on the one I just found has it down as 1868 not 1858 as I said before all my scribblings still doesn't explain why I have a Samuel in the 1881 now I'm confusing myself again. I hope you can understand what I'm saying oh ok now I remember Samuel's dad was Samuel too so there you go. I think I'd best shut up now before I not only confuse myself even more but also start confusing you if you aren't already. hee hee.
You must think me a complete nutter well you'd be right hee hee. No not really I just confuse myself when speaking of something I'm unsure of.
See you after. Bye

E xx

Smartbum. Well hey, I had Auley, it was only a short hop to Auby!

Congratulations -- you got your teeth into Samuel and Sarah and you got 'em! -- oh, and John Samuel, of course, the holy grail here. ;)

But what the heck, I found some spare Onleys. Erica can now set about finding their descendants so she has cousins.

The deletion would have been one of "us", Erica. The powers that be take their sweet time and act only on reports.

I'm thinking that Dea makes messy posts and then deletes them and starts over. Dea?

Sorry Dea you have lost me, John Criley where did that come from? Then as you have seen I'm easily confused.

L

E xo

Cheeeky Kathryn !!!!

It was all your fault!!!

You had put on your message that John was a Toll gate keeper on one of the census... - I put up the next message to say that he was a Tax collector and the Tollgate keeper lived next door !!!

By the time I had posted, you had taken off the incorrect information so my post didn't make sense and I therefore deleted it!!!

So, don't worry about that one Erica !!!

Dea x

P.S. - I don't know why you should think I do messy posts (You should see my desk though !!!!!!!!!!!) Tee hee

Dea x

Dea x

Criley is a mistranscription of Onley, as is Auby. They're both Onley. One of those names you're lucky to find correctly transcribed ever.

John Criley is John Samuel Onley.
The Aubys are his Onley grandparents.

(well, not his *only* grandparents ... hahahaha)