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Hello yes I am in much need of your assistance again so please do HELP!!!!

I have got Jno. Samuel's birth certificate & upon it, it states that his parents were John & Caroline Onley then living at Elizabeth Street London. Jno. Samuel was born in Newington his father was down as a traveller. His mothers maiden name looks something like Mann. I have been told that they are most likely from Cheltenham in Gloucestershire is there anyone out there that can help me PLEASE. I certainly would be appreciated I've been taring my hair out for months now & just need that one lead you know what it's like so if you can help me in the slightest please do contact me. I certainly would appreciate it very very much.

Best wishes

Erica (Australia)

Multiple threads, same topic.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=999313

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=993486

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=993500

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=999320

I think Erica, if you want help from Kath (or anyone) it may be wise to delete the first sentence in your posting above.

And you may want to supply some dates in the posting. Assuming the parents married after 1837 you can look for their marriage yourself on freebmd and buy the certificate using the ref on there.

What you do is add a post to the existing thread, providing the new information.

The benefit of doing it the right way is that anyone who has already offered assistance will see the new info when the thread appears back up at the top of their "my threads" list.

And actually, when I went back to one of my FreeBMD tabs this a.m., it was still open at the list of Onley BMDs I'd been contemplating yesterday without any success at finding what you're after ...

No wonder there was no marriage in the GRO.

1861:


Name: John Onley
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Name: Caroline Onley
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Guildford, Surrey, England

Name: John Onley
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea South
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 177

Caroline Onley 35
Eliztt Onley 6
Emma Onley 36
Henry Onley 9 Mo
John Onley 51
John Onley 14
Richard Onley 8


Facts are such fun.

I would apply for the birth cert of one of the other children in that household, e.g.

Name: Henry Onley
Age: 9 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

and see whether the mother's surname is legible on it.

The info for getting that birth certificate can of course be found by a search at

http://www.freebmd.org.uk

Meanwhile, it's alway worth trying the International Genealogy Index to see whether there are any baptisms of children of John Onley and Caroline in the database.

http://www.familysearch.org

select "advanced search", select International Genealogy Index, search for

father: John Onley
mother: Caroline
region: British Isles

no other info needed.

And here's one for free -- this is what you get:


JOHN SAMUEL ONLY
Christening: 24 OCT 1845 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England

Parents:
Father: JOHN ONLY
Mother: CAROLINE CHARITY

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:
Batch No.: C062361


When you have done that search, you can click on the batch number (as above) and search for other Onley births in that parish. Unfortunately, there aren't any, and that is the only birth to John Onley and Caroline that the original search produces.

It seems that there has been some household merging in the 1851 household:


John Onley 40 - head, born Isleworth
Caroline Onley 28 - wife, born Guildford
John Onley 17 - son, born Chelsea
Thomas Onley 7 - son, born Chelsea
John Mathers 4 - son, born Guildford


Looks like Caroline already had son John Mathers when she combined forces with John Onley.

The age for son John Onley is definitely 17, which is ten years out of whack for John Samuel, who isn't otherwise accounted for. No explanation springs to mind.

Caroline was definitely a second spouse -- 1841:


Name: John Onley
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Hundred: Ossulstone (Kensington Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Chelsea South

John Onley 30
Eliz Onley 25
John Onley 10
Willm Onley 5
Elizth Onley 1
Frances Prosser 50

John Onley
Spouse: Eliza Prosser
Marriage: 17 SEP 1832 Battersea, Surrey, England

Source Information:
Batch No.: I022162


*Not* an extracted record -- submitted to the IGI by someone, possibly an unreliable Mormon; but the info looks not bad, when considered in light of the presence of that Frances Prosser in the 1841 household.

Search within that batch and you'll find what looks like John's brother Henry marrying the year before.


Anytime you'd like me to stop, just say.

If Caroline was a Mathers -- and this is getting quite messy -- this looks like her in 1841:


Name: Caroline Mathers
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Hundred: Ossulstone (Kensington Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Chelsea North East

Elizabeth Grant 12
Jane Grant 15
John Grant 50 - butcher
John Grant 18
Mary Ann Grant 4
Mary Ann Grant 10
Sarah Grant 17
Thomas Grant 4
William Grant 8
Henry Headley 20
Samuel Headley 18
Caroline Mathers 19 - servant


I'm not seeing a birth for young John Mathers in Guildford or anywhere else reasonably related.

He, in 1851, sure does look a lot like the absent John Samuel Onley one would expect to see there, though.

KatherynB,

Thanks for typing that all out so clearly - I have found all of the above info but mine is in the form of scribbled notes on bits of paper.

It all seems to fit together and I come to exactly the same conclusion as you - that John Mathers on 1851 became John Onley on 1861

BUT, Erica says she has the birth cert for John Samuel giving John +Caroline as parents, under the name Onley.

I really don't understand this one !!

Oh, well - back to my scribbled-on bits of papers.

Dea x

P S.

With regard to John + Eliza's marriage

John Onley
Spouse: Eliza Prosser
Marriage: 17 SEP 1832 Battersea, Surrey, England

The only death I can find which would seem to fit for Eliza is of an Elizabeth Onley - March Quarter 1849 - Islington 3 207

BUT if this is the same household, which it seems to be, that would mean that Eliza was still alive when John and Caroline had little John Samuel ??

Dea x

I know eh, Dea? There does seem to be a perfect match for John Samuel's birth in the GRO, and if the cert says it's him, then who are we to argue??

I wonder whether little John Samuel got registered under his father's name even though the parents weren't married, but then was known as his mother's son only -- maybe the father was still living with his wife for a time -- and thus was called Mathers for the first while.

Best I can come up with!

My thoughts exactly !!

I can find no other explanation.

Dea x
P.S.

I would LOVE to see the cert - I wonder if Erica would be willing to e-mail a copy?

Dea x

Oh ladies I am so terribly sorry for the reply to Kathryn it was totally uncalled for. Oh ladies what you say is just so confusing you are down the lines I was down about 6 months ago thinking Mathers. I'm sorry Kathryn I don't have a date for the wedding as I have no idea of whom I'm looking for. Yes may I send both of you a copy of Jno. Samuel's birth certificate that would be great with both of your experience put together maybe you could help me sort this out for once & for all. You see I have Caroline down as former name Mann or something that looks like this. I've sent it to a few other ladies I've met on GR & they have looked at it for me & can't tell me what it actually sais. I've tried using my imagination but I'm afraid that fails me. I have tried to delete the response I put to Kathyryn initially but it hasn't gone anywhere. I do know that the line you are on now is not the correct one ONLY because a lady who we thought I was related to has the tree & her Caroline & mine are different as her Caroline doesn't have the middle name of Charity & her John has the middle name of Easton something like that & is most definately not a traveller as mine states on Jno. S's birth certificate. I'm new to all this & am starting to confuse myself sorry.
If you could give me your email address' or if you'd prefer I'll put mine on here then you can get in touch with me for sending you a copy of the birth certificate. I'd sure appreciate that. Let me know I look forward to hearing from you again soon. Thankyou so much for all the time & effort that you have both put into this for me it really is appreciated.

Erica xx

Erica -- I'm hugely busy today, but just send me and Dee your email address by private message (click on our names). We can email you then with our addresses, and you can send the scanned copy. It's not too likely we'll succeed where others have failed, but you never know!

Erica,

Have pm'd my e-mail address - Have you sent the cert through?

Dea x

Hello Dea thankyou yes I have I sent it earlier today.

Well ladies I have some news that may shed some light on this subject.
I had a message from another lovely lady her name was Lesley she found for me on the 1851 census Caroline Onley visiting Gloucestershire none other than the Mann family. So now I have to work that one out don't I. If you'd like a copy of these details I can send them to you just let me know. I had reason to believe she was from Gloucestershire now I have confirmation well kind of. How do I confirm this I don't know where I go from here. Could you ladies please set me straight. Of course I don't expect you to do everything for me just put me on the right path would be a marvellous help.
See you later bye for now. Oh by the way if you are in the UK the time difference is 11hrs we are ahead of you, in some things at any rate lol , Canada I'm not sure.
bye for now.
(: ) well I tried
E x

So I've looked at the certificate, and there's no question. The name is Caroline Charity MANN.

And here's what seems to be the big news.


Name: Caroline Charity Mann
Year of Registration: 1843
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cheltenham
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 2[83]3


I hadn't cottoned on to Charity being her middle name before. So I just searched for marriages for the given names Caroline Charity.

See the problem? The page number was illegible to the FreeBMD transcriber. So there's no list of names to see for the same volume/page number. And a search for a Mann-Onley marriage gets no results, because the names don't appear on the same page, as far as FreeBMD's search engine knows.

Let's see who else might have married in that quarter in Cheltenham. Three guesses, the first two don't count. Here I go to search ...

Why look!


Name: John Onley
Year of Registration: 1843
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cheltenham
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 253

(four grooms and three brides in that list -- Caroline Charity Mann is the missing bride)


So I don't know about that other person's Charity who'sit and John Easton what'sit -- but those ARE your people, parents of John Samuel Onley, per his birth certificate (which I solemnly affirm I have seen the scanned copy of ... although I can't say it wasn't a scanned copy of a fake, heh heh).


So next we teach you now to submit corrections to FreeBMD, to get the right page number on Caroline's record, and how to add a postem so people can contact you ...

Oh, by the way, note how the marriage ties in with the info from Lesley, "on the 1851 census Caroline Onley visiting Gloucestershire none other than the Mann family", and your belief that she was from Gloucestershire (based on what that you havent' told us?).

If this is she in 1841:


Name: Caroline Mann
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: St Nicholas
Hundred: Gloucester City
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Gloucester
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas

Caroline Mann 15
Elizabeth Mann 45
Emma Mann 10
James Mann 30


It looks like that James is her father -- the age is rather odd, but he appears first in the list in the original, so is presumably head of household.

And there's this interesting household on the facing page:

Ann Mahon 60
Wm Mahon 25
Jane Mann 20

That is indeed how the names are written. I wonder whether the surname was in the process of changing from Mahon to Mann?

No point in speculating about where she was in 1841 til you have that marriage certificate though.


As for what became of Eliza Prosser Onley ... well, it was very early days, and the death may simply not have been registered.

As for why John Samuel Onley appears to be called John Mathers in 1851 ... I could only speculate that he was written down as John Samuel by his parents, since the double given name format seems to have been something that he stuck with all his life, and it got misread as Mathers by the enumerator ...