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Hmm, yes, I think those are the ones that are supposedly mine! John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr, parents of Robert Cooper, the alleged father of my Reuben.

You'll see why I don't trust these things, though. ;)

"John COOPER [Parents] was born 1749 in Place and was christened 17 Dec 1749 in Calverton Nottingham UK. **He died 2 Dec 1809 in Calverton Nottingham UK and was buried 19 Aug 1812** in Calverton Nottingham UK. John married Elizabeth PARR on 4 Sep 1775 in Calverton Nottingham UK."

He was buried nearly three years after he died, hm?

It always just strikes me that people light on some names that fit, and mash them into the tree just so they get a generation out of it.

Where would anybody even *get* info like that, about a death date (that far off from the burial date)??

Interesting, thanks, I shall poke around there!

I agree take it carefully but maybe a clue in there somewhere.

Following on chat with Wendy in her Nottinghamshire records office -- everybody else can ignore!

The popular wisdom is that Reuben Cooper's father was Robert and Robert's father was John.

Now here's a John in 1841:

John Cooper abt 1778 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Hannah Cooper abt 1786 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Joseph Cooper abt 1808 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Susan Cooper abt 1821 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Mederic Cooper [Maria] abt 1823 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Friedrick Cooper [Frederick] abt 1826 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire

and here's why he's vaguely interesting.

An Ancestry user named jogee36 has corrected census records for reams of my Littler and related ancestors. If I ever meet this person I will throttle them. All s/he puts is "known family", and s/he has declined contact through Ancestry. S/he has added to households where I had already made connections, and just flat out ignored me. I suspect a Mormon somewhere in my distant relations.

So who made the correction to that Cooper household? jogee36 is who.

jogee36 is related to my Littlers of Leicestershire via Cheshire. My Littler married my Cooper of Calverton. Here is jogee36 correcting Coopers of Calverton. Am I jogee36??

Anyway, in relation to Wendy's people, there is this in the IGI:

John Cooper
Christening: 03 MAY 1778 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Father: John Cooper
Mother: *Sarah Baguley *

and that's a match for the John with wife Hannah in 1841, above.

However, I think my Robert Cooper's mother is supposed to be Elizabeth (but know of no evidence of this):

John Cooper
Birth: 1773
Christening: 03 MAY 1778 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Death: 13 OCT 1852 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Father: John Cooper
Mother: Elizabeth Parr
Spouse: Hannah Blackwell (spelled Blacknall on a child's christening record)
Marriage: 24 OCT 1803 Calverton, Nottingham, England

and that's John in the household in the census above. If any of that is correct.


So Wendy, if you're looking -- thee and me either is or is not 27th cousins by marriage, I'd say. ;)

Hi Janey,

Yes John Cooper married Sarah Baguley 6 April 1777 at Calverton, Sarah was the grand neice of my 7th Gt Grandmother Martha Baguley born 1701.

Anyway I haven't followed this line yet but will do now. My friend who has done some of the Coopers gave me copies of his trees and he has John married to a Susanna Palin on 26 Nov 1799 at Lowdham, I'm not sure if this is right , so I have a lot of checking to do. He Doesn't have Reuben on his tree. So I have a lot of checking to do when I'm at the archives this week.

Beware of the Plumtree Astill Family site they do have some things right but I have found they have a lot wrong.

Don't you just hate it when someone adds people that are wrong to their trees or changes sources on ancestry without checking there facts.

I'll get back to you as soon as I find anything.

Wendy
:-)

Hi Janey,

Robert Cooper and Sarah Smith married 5 May 1823
children Christenings
Hannah 6 Sept 1829
Alice 6 April 1834
Emma 9 Oct 1836.

I'm going to go though the fiches again in case I missed some and check the near by villages too.

Wendy

Yay, Wendy! The real dirt at last. Thanks and thanks again!

For Reuben and possible others, I'm wondering about surname Smith, child(ren) of Sarah before the Cooper marriage.

But there's also a big gap between the 1823 marriage and the first baptism in 1829. Reuben gives ages equating to 1824-1827, born Calverton, in censuses.


By way of summary and following on from those baptisms --


Emma and Alice with Sarah in 1851:

Alice Cooper 18
Emer Cooper 14 (Emma)
Sarah Cooper 51 (c 1800)

and 1861:

Emma Cooper 24
Sarah Cooper 63 (c1798)

And those daughters are here in 1841 in Calverton:

Alice Cooper 9
Emma Cooper 5
Mary Cooper 10
Harriet Smith 19

with Sarah's parents (so it's said) on the same census page:

Elizabeth Smith 72
Elizabeth Smith 35
James Smith 72
James Smith 20
Jane Smith 6
John Smith 2
Martha Smith 9


But no Reuben or his mother Sarah Smith Cooper in 1841 -- except this possibility for Sarah in the workhouse:

Name: Sarah Cooper
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Civil parish: Radford


I do tend to think Robert Cooper deserted the family and repartnered.

So ... if you see a marriage/baptisms to account for this 1841 household in Calverton, which I suspect of being my Robert (my grx3 grf, btw):

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4 (possibly really 14)

Or -- is there a burial of a Robert Cooper between the 1836 baptism of Emma and the 1841 census?



How about this one, a submitted record in the IGI with same parents Robert Cooper and Sarah? --

1. THOS COOPER Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England

Heck, for all I know, that *is* Reuben, who then went by a different name!

edit -- this could be that Thomas in 1841 in Calverton:

John Cooper 38
Ann Cooper 37
Sarah Cooper 16
> Thomas Cooper 13 - c1828
Mary Cooper 11
Ann Cooper 10
Joseph Cooper 8
John Cooper 6
Rebeca Cooper 4


You must only mess with my Coopers when you're at a loose end. They've waited a long time now, they aren't in a rush. ;)

Hi Janey,

I did see a christening for 1827 but the name was hard to read so was going to ask my friend who has been doing some Coopers of Calverton but he wasn't there today so will ask him when I next see him. Reubenhas to be somewhere and I WILL find him. :D

Be in touch soon I'm off now eyes are getting tired now.

Wendy

Hi Janey,

Where did Reuben and Mary marry

Wendy

Now that's interesting, an unintelligible baptism. ;) And I need to meet your Calverton Cooper friend! ........ It isn't jogee36, is it?

(I'm sorry -- I think I managed to miss your post about that baptism earlier.)

Where die Reuben and Mary marry. Ha. The real question is *when* did they marry. ;)

Marriages Sep 1872
Cooper Reuben Basford 7b 242
FALLOWELL Mary Ann Basford 7b 242

Yes, that's right, 1872. Some 7 years after the birth of their last child, 25 years after the birth of the first. (Uh oh, if FannyByGaslight sees this, she'll be pointing and laughing. Here I was just saying that all *my* ancestors were born to properly wed people. Oops.)

At Calverton. Reuben's father: Robert, frame work knitter. Doesn't say deceased, but of course, the likelihood of Robert being alive in 1872 is rather low, if he was born c1800. There's no death of a Robert Cooper in Calverton of that age after 1865 (when age started to be included in the GRO index.) The one I've pegged as possibly mine in 1841 and 1851, a frame work knitter with a wife and young kids, might be the death in 1856.

I've searched for a pre-existing marriage for either one to no avail. (On page 1, I ruled out possibles, I think; Mary Ann didn't marry Clarke, and Reuben didn't marry Sarah.) But hey, if you see one ... ;)

Hi Janey,

We just wondered where Reuben and Mary married as you said that the cert says Robert for his father so thought you had the certificate.

Sorry the unintelligible baptism was Thomas we had a good look at it today it was a different Vicar that wrote it.

No my friend isn't jogee36 he doesn't use genes he has most of the same info you have and has the same problem with your Reuben and he's not sure if he fits into his tree. He's been looking for 7 years!
He has written down all the christenings of the Coopers from 1575 to 1873 and he has given me this list . So I need to sort though it.

It seems that there was 2 Roberts of Calverton both Frame Work Knitters one being the one we know of married to Sarah Smith the other one was married to Elizabeth Elizabeth Wagstaff married on 30 Aug 1812 we think this one is the son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr christened on 15 Sept 1789.

The other thing we found was a christening for a Sarah Cooper daughter of Reuben and Sarah on 21 May 1848.
But still no christening for any Reuben.
Sorry if this is confusing for you because it is but I'm not giving up.

Wendy
:-)

Sorry, you meant the actual church place where they married?

Yes, I do have the certificate. The problem is that all my certificates are in a manila envelope somewhere, and I don't know where. Eek!

Sarah 1848 is indeed the first (known) child of Reuben and Mary Ann. Followed by twins Mary and William, 4 months in the 1851 census and abysmally mistranscribed by Ancestry.

Births Dec 1850
Cooper Mary Ann Basford 15 421
Cooper William Basford 15 421


This is why I think the idea of a pre-existing marriage for either of them is unlikely -- they were both in their very early 20s when Sarah was born, like 21-24.

Oh, wait, wait -- you said Sarah 1848 was the daughter of Reuben and *Sarah*! Well I freely admit I never got her birth certificate, just went by that 1851 census and assumed she belonged to them both, at least not having any reason to think otherwise.

Breakthrough?? Maybe he *did* have a pre-existing marriage.


Could be either one, depending on how long born before baptised ...

Births Mar 1848
COOPER Sarah Basford 15 419
Births Jun 1848
Cooper Sarah Basford 15 427

As I was saying back in 2007 ... all Coopers had to be named one of four things, one of which was Sarah.


But, odd that he would have the daughter with him in 1851 if the mother was still living.

There are 3 Sarah Cooper deaths in Basford, Mar 1850, Jun 1850 and Mar 1851.

Don't worry about it being confusing for me, it isn't -- as long as it isn't confusing ... or tedious ... for you!

And say hello to my cousin one way or another. ;)

(jogee36 is the Ancestry user who can't be contacted through that system, who has corrected a ton of records for ancestors in Leicestershire of the Littler spouse of my Cooper gr-grparent, Reuben's child ... and has also corrected Coopers in Nottinghamshire ... leading me to think that jogee36 is me ...)


The Thomas baptism you deciphered -- the parents didn't match, Robert and Sarah, did they?

Because this just might be interesting.

Marriages Mar 1845
? BRENTNALL Sarah Basford 15 631
CLIFTON John Basford 15 631
? Cooper Thomas Basford 15 631
Holmes Samuel Basford 15 631
Kerry Elizabeth Basford 15 631
PALFREY Richard Basford 15 631
ROBERTS Ann Basford 15 631
WILCOCKSON Mary Basford 15 631

I don't think Thomas was one of the more common Cooper names.

There is no Thomas+Sarah Cooper couple in Basford reg dist in 1851 who would have married in 1845 (one couple with a 10-yr-old kid in Wilford who are there already in 1841).