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Sorry, you meant the actual church place where they married?

Yes, I do have the certificate. The problem is that all my certificates are in a manila envelope somewhere, and I don't know where. Eek!

Sarah 1848 is indeed the first (known) child of Reuben and Mary Ann. Followed by twins Mary and William, 4 months in the 1851 census and abysmally mistranscribed by Ancestry.

Births Dec 1850
Cooper Mary Ann Basford 15 421
Cooper William Basford 15 421


This is why I think the idea of a pre-existing marriage for either of them is unlikely -- they were both in their very early 20s when Sarah was born, like 21-24.

Oh, wait, wait -- you said Sarah 1848 was the daughter of Reuben and *Sarah*! Well I freely admit I never got her birth certificate, just went by that 1851 census and assumed she belonged to them both, at least not having any reason to think otherwise.

Breakthrough?? Maybe he *did* have a pre-existing marriage.


Could be either one, depending on how long born before baptised ...

Births Mar 1848
COOPER Sarah Basford 15 419
Births Jun 1848
Cooper Sarah Basford 15 427

As I was saying back in 2007 ... all Coopers had to be named one of four things, one of which was Sarah.


But, odd that he would have the daughter with him in 1851 if the mother was still living.

There are 3 Sarah Cooper deaths in Basford, Mar 1850, Jun 1850 and Mar 1851.

Don't worry about it being confusing for me, it isn't -- as long as it isn't confusing ... or tedious ... for you!

And say hello to my cousin one way or another. ;)

(jogee36 is the Ancestry user who can't be contacted through that system, who has corrected a ton of records for ancestors in Leicestershire of the Littler spouse of my Cooper gr-grparent, Reuben's child ... and has also corrected Coopers in Nottinghamshire ... leading me to think that jogee36 is me ...)


The Thomas baptism you deciphered -- the parents didn't match, Robert and Sarah, did they?

Because this just might be interesting.

Marriages Mar 1845
? BRENTNALL Sarah Basford 15 631
CLIFTON John Basford 15 631
? Cooper Thomas Basford 15 631
Holmes Samuel Basford 15 631
Kerry Elizabeth Basford 15 631
PALFREY Richard Basford 15 631
ROBERTS Ann Basford 15 631
WILCOCKSON Mary Basford 15 631

I don't think Thomas was one of the more common Cooper names.

There is no Thomas+Sarah Cooper couple in Basford reg dist in 1851 who would have married in 1845 (one couple with a 10-yr-old kid in Wilford who are there already in 1841).

Hi Janey,

We just wondered where Reuben and Mary married as you said that the cert says Robert for his father so thought you had the certificate.

Sorry the unintelligible baptism was Thomas we had a good look at it today it was a different Vicar that wrote it.

No my friend isn't jogee36 he doesn't use genes he has most of the same info you have and has the same problem with your Reuben and he's not sure if he fits into his tree. He's been looking for 7 years!
He has written down all the christenings of the Coopers from 1575 to 1873 and he has given me this list . So I need to sort though it.

It seems that there was 2 Roberts of Calverton both Frame Work Knitters one being the one we know of married to Sarah Smith the other one was married to Elizabeth Elizabeth Wagstaff married on 30 Aug 1812 we think this one is the son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr christened on 15 Sept 1789.

The other thing we found was a christening for a Sarah Cooper daughter of Reuben and Sarah on 21 May 1848.
But still no christening for any Reuben.
Sorry if this is confusing for you because it is but I'm not giving up.

Wendy
:-)

Now that's interesting, an unintelligible baptism. ;) And I need to meet your Calverton Cooper friend! ........ It isn't jogee36, is it?

(I'm sorry -- I think I managed to miss your post about that baptism earlier.)

Where die Reuben and Mary marry. Ha. The real question is *when* did they marry. ;)

Marriages Sep 1872
Cooper Reuben Basford 7b 242
FALLOWELL Mary Ann Basford 7b 242

Yes, that's right, 1872. Some 7 years after the birth of their last child, 25 years after the birth of the first. (Uh oh, if FannyByGaslight sees this, she'll be pointing and laughing. Here I was just saying that all *my* ancestors were born to properly wed people. Oops.)

At Calverton. Reuben's father: Robert, frame work knitter. Doesn't say deceased, but of course, the likelihood of Robert being alive in 1872 is rather low, if he was born c1800. There's no death of a Robert Cooper in Calverton of that age after 1865 (when age started to be included in the GRO index.) The one I've pegged as possibly mine in 1841 and 1851, a frame work knitter with a wife and young kids, might be the death in 1856.

I've searched for a pre-existing marriage for either one to no avail. (On page 1, I ruled out possibles, I think; Mary Ann didn't marry Clarke, and Reuben didn't marry Sarah.) But hey, if you see one ... ;)

Hi Janey,

Where did Reuben and Mary marry

Wendy

Hi Janey,

I did see a christening for 1827 but the name was hard to read so was going to ask my friend who has been doing some Coopers of Calverton but he wasn't there today so will ask him when I next see him. Reubenhas to be somewhere and I WILL find him. :D

Be in touch soon I'm off now eyes are getting tired now.

Wendy

Yay, Wendy! The real dirt at last. Thanks and thanks again!

For Reuben and possible others, I'm wondering about surname Smith, child(ren) of Sarah before the Cooper marriage.

But there's also a big gap between the 1823 marriage and the first baptism in 1829. Reuben gives ages equating to 1824-1827, born Calverton, in censuses.


By way of summary and following on from those baptisms --


Emma and Alice with Sarah in 1851:

Alice Cooper 18
Emer Cooper 14 (Emma)
Sarah Cooper 51 (c 1800)

and 1861:

Emma Cooper 24
Sarah Cooper 63 (c1798)

And those daughters are here in 1841 in Calverton:

Alice Cooper 9
Emma Cooper 5
Mary Cooper 10
Harriet Smith 19

with Sarah's parents (so it's said) on the same census page:

Elizabeth Smith 72
Elizabeth Smith 35
James Smith 72
James Smith 20
Jane Smith 6
John Smith 2
Martha Smith 9


But no Reuben or his mother Sarah Smith Cooper in 1841 -- except this possibility for Sarah in the workhouse:

Name: Sarah Cooper
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Civil parish: Radford


I do tend to think Robert Cooper deserted the family and repartnered.

So ... if you see a marriage/baptisms to account for this 1841 household in Calverton, which I suspect of being my Robert (my grx3 grf, btw):

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4 (possibly really 14)

Or -- is there a burial of a Robert Cooper between the 1836 baptism of Emma and the 1841 census?



How about this one, a submitted record in the IGI with same parents Robert Cooper and Sarah? --

1. THOS COOPER Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England

Heck, for all I know, that *is* Reuben, who then went by a different name!

edit -- this could be that Thomas in 1841 in Calverton:

John Cooper 38
Ann Cooper 37
Sarah Cooper 16
> Thomas Cooper 13 - c1828
Mary Cooper 11
Ann Cooper 10
Joseph Cooper 8
John Cooper 6
Rebeca Cooper 4


You must only mess with my Coopers when you're at a loose end. They've waited a long time now, they aren't in a rush. ;)

Hi Janey,

Robert Cooper and Sarah Smith married 5 May 1823
children Christenings
Hannah 6 Sept 1829
Alice 6 April 1834
Emma 9 Oct 1836.

I'm going to go though the fiches again in case I missed some and check the near by villages too.

Wendy

Hi Janey,

Yes John Cooper married Sarah Baguley 6 April 1777 at Calverton, Sarah was the grand neice of my 7th Gt Grandmother Martha Baguley born 1701.

Anyway I haven't followed this line yet but will do now. My friend who has done some of the Coopers gave me copies of his trees and he has John married to a Susanna Palin on 26 Nov 1799 at Lowdham, I'm not sure if this is right , so I have a lot of checking to do. He Doesn't have Reuben on his tree. So I have a lot of checking to do when I'm at the archives this week.

Beware of the Plumtree Astill Family site they do have some things right but I have found they have a lot wrong.

Don't you just hate it when someone adds people that are wrong to their trees or changes sources on ancestry without checking there facts.

I'll get back to you as soon as I find anything.

Wendy
:-)

Following on chat with Wendy in her Nottinghamshire records office -- everybody else can ignore!

The popular wisdom is that Reuben Cooper's father was Robert and Robert's father was John.

Now here's a John in 1841:

John Cooper abt 1778 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Hannah Cooper abt 1786 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Joseph Cooper abt 1808 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Susan Cooper abt 1821 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Mederic Cooper [Maria] abt 1823 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire
Friedrick Cooper [Frederick] abt 1826 Nottinghamshire, England - Calverton Nottinghamshire

and here's why he's vaguely interesting.

An Ancestry user named jogee36 has corrected census records for reams of my Littler and related ancestors. If I ever meet this person I will throttle them. All s/he puts is "known family", and s/he has declined contact through Ancestry. S/he has added to households where I had already made connections, and just flat out ignored me. I suspect a Mormon somewhere in my distant relations.

So who made the correction to that Cooper household? jogee36 is who.

jogee36 is related to my Littlers of Leicestershire via Cheshire. My Littler married my Cooper of Calverton. Here is jogee36 correcting Coopers of Calverton. Am I jogee36??

Anyway, in relation to Wendy's people, there is this in the IGI:

John Cooper
Christening: 03 MAY 1778 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Father: John Cooper
Mother: *Sarah Baguley *

and that's a match for the John with wife Hannah in 1841, above.

However, I think my Robert Cooper's mother is supposed to be Elizabeth (but know of no evidence of this):

John Cooper
Birth: 1773
Christening: 03 MAY 1778 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Death: 13 OCT 1852 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Father: John Cooper
Mother: Elizabeth Parr
Spouse: Hannah Blackwell (spelled Blacknall on a child's christening record)
Marriage: 24 OCT 1803 Calverton, Nottingham, England

and that's John in the household in the census above. If any of that is correct.


So Wendy, if you're looking -- thee and me either is or is not 27th cousins by marriage, I'd say. ;)

I agree take it carefully but maybe a clue in there somewhere.

Hmm, yes, I think those are the ones that are supposedly mine! John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr, parents of Robert Cooper, the alleged father of my Reuben.

You'll see why I don't trust these things, though. ;)

"John COOPER [Parents] was born 1749 in Place and was christened 17 Dec 1749 in Calverton Nottingham UK. **He died 2 Dec 1809 in Calverton Nottingham UK and was buried 19 Aug 1812** in Calverton Nottingham UK. John married Elizabeth PARR on 4 Sep 1775 in Calverton Nottingham UK."

He was buried nearly three years after he died, hm?

It always just strikes me that people light on some names that fit, and mash them into the tree just so they get a generation out of it.

Where would anybody even *get* info like that, about a death date (that far off from the burial date)??

Interesting, thanks, I shall poke around there!

http://www.astillfamilytree.8m.com/aqwg25.htm

I wonder if these Coopers are connected to yours?

Not a direct answer but may hold some clues.

Groom's Name: Reuben Cooper
Bride's Name: Mary Mclean (another record says McDonald or McLean)
Marriage Date: 29 Jun 1840
Marriage Place: Bothwell,Lanark,Scotland
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11625-4
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 1042965
Collection: Scotland Marriages, 1561-1910.

... no, wait - the one in the censuses was still married to Jane in 1841 ..


I suspect this is a child of Reuben Jr:

Name: Zacharias Cooper
Birth Date: 17 May 1856
Birthplace: SPRINGBURN,LANARK,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Reuben Cooper
Mother's Name: Margaret Pellie
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11915-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950



The Reuben who is definitely mine (married Mary Ann Fallowell 1872, several years after the birth of their last child) said his father was Robert Cooper, framework knitter, and that is credible, although by no means to be taken as gospel.

I got too excited and beat you to it. ;)

From reading my post on the Clinic board,

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/help_clinic/thread/1249379

Helen sent me this:

Just flinging this into the mix regarding the search for Reuben Cooper in 1841. Noticed it on the Helpers board.

Piece: SCT1841/652 Place: Old Monkland -Lanarkshire Enumeration District: 14A
Civil Parish: Old Monkland Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 15 Page: 9
Address: Calder Bank

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
COOPER Rueben M 15 Iron Puddler England
COOPER Jane F 15 England
MCDONALD Sarah F 15 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)

If this info is not relevant .. just ignore it.



I am feeling dim again -- after the last time somebody found one of my English ancestors (born Wiltshire of long Wiltshire roots, married in Bristol, I've since finally found, lived and died in Wiltshire) getting married in Scotland, I thought I'd have learned.

But ... I think that Reuben is probably connected with this Reuben, in 1841:

Name: Rueben Cowper
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1803
Where born: England
(wife Jane, 40, born Foreign Parts !)

Civil Parish: Old Monkland
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Calder Bank
Occupation: Iron Pudler


and in 1851:

Name: Ruben Cooper
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Cooper - born Kilmany, Argyle
Where born: England

Civil Parish: Gorbals
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 2 Reform Court
Occupation: Puddler


... and it looks kind of remote. But no sign of the junior Reuben yet after 1841 ...

Oh, I can see this thread is going to go the way of Ernest Hill/Monck. ;) (As long as AuntySherlock doesn't see it, I may be safe!)


Up there in opening post:

"Also, Reuben Cooper is *not* the Reuben in Derbyshire in 1841.
That one had a long and happy life with a wife of his own, Sarah I believe."


Yes, I liked the looks of him for a bit, but he eluded me. ;)

This is him in 1851 I believe:

Name: Reuben Cooper
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah
Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish: Morton
County/Island: Derbyshire

The one in 1841 shows as Derbyshire, but the reg dist is Mansfield.


20 Aug 2010 - editing rather than adding, to avoid nudging the thread.

From the new familysearch

Name: Ann Cooper
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Dec 1831
Baptism/Christening Place: WESLEYAN METHODIST, CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Birth Date: 24 Nov 1831
Father's Name: Robert Cooper
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973


Inclusion of mother's surname suggests parents not married?

That is the only baptism in Calverton 1810-1840 for father Robert Cooper.


Name: John Smith Or Hopkinson
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Hopkinson
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

How bizarre. John Smith son of James Smith and Elizabeth was baptised on the same date, 8 September 1816, the only baptism for those parents 1770-1840. James and Elizabeth appear to have been Sarah Smith's parents.

There are quite a few births around Nottinghamshire 1810-1840 with mother Sarah Smith, no father or father with different surname. This is the only other one in Calverton:

Name: Mary Smith
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Mar 1814
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


to check:

Name: Reuben Henry Sansome
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Apr 1827
Baptism/Christening Place: BASFORD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Sansome
Mother's Name: Sarah
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

(He is in 1841 census; corrected name. 1881 in Radford. Ruled out.)


Re the 1841 Robert Cooper household in Calverton -- ruling out this baptism as youngest son Joseph:

Name: Joseph Turner
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Aug 1836
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Turner
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

(No other Turner with mother Elizabeth in Calverton.) They're in the 1841.

No children for Robert Cooper and Elizabeth.

Have you looked at this one JC

1841 census - household transcription
Person: COOPER, Rueben
Address: Scarcliff, Scarcliff

JACKSON, John M 40 1801 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, Mary F 40 1801 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, John M 13 1828 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, George M 10 1831 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, William M 14 1827 Derbyshire VIEW
SALES, John M 20 1821 Derbyshire VIEW
YATES, George M 15 1826 Derbyshire VIEW
COOPER, Rueben M 15 1826 VIEW
JOHNSON, Mary F 20 1821

DEREK!! -- down here!!!

This is where I've sent you in my PM.


This is what I'm wondering about, that you said up above:


"ok here we go.........Robert Cooper born Calverton 1796 son of john Cooper 1749-1809 and Elizabeth Parr b 1748

married SARAH SMITH 05.05.1823 ..she ended up in Radford Workhouse i9n 1841 and eventually died at Calverton..date unknown."


What I'm wondering is where that's all from?

I think it's from submitted IGI records and/or my distant cousin's messed-up unsourced family tree.

Is there anything official (real parish record) about that 1823 Smith-Cooper marriage??

I'm baaaack! Just before my government work sources went berserk with work in early December (the last huzzah before Parliament recesses for the holidays) and I became so unslept and unbathed for the next month trying to keep up that you wouldn't have wanted to be near me ... I had another poke at my Smiths and Coopers.

Tell me what you think, friends and other-countrypeople.


In short, Reuben Cooper stated on his marriage certificate to Mary Ann Fallowell in 1872 that his age was 48 and his father was Robert Cooper, frame work knitter. His mother seems to be the Sarah Cooper living in his vicinity in the mid-1800s censuses.

There are submitted records in the IGI showing the marriage of Sarah Smith and Robert Cooper and there are both submitted and extracted records for some children. A fellow descendant of Reuben Cooper and Mary Ann Fallowell has swallowed all of the unverified records holus bolus and put some very messy trees here and at Ancestry. We are going to ignore them.


1841

Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
>>> Occupation FWK = frame work knitter

Civil parish: Calverton
Registration district: Basford
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4

and in 1851

Robert Cooper 51
Elizabeth Cooper 41
William Cooper 21
Sarah Cooper 17
Joseph Cooper 24 - ? married and it looks like 24
(so unfortunately no children after 1837)


Not that the world and its dog weren't frame work knitters.

This Robert Cooper is a little old not to have older children in the household. The children are born c1830 and later.

Submitted records in the IGI for children of Robert Cooper and Elizabeth - info all obviously taken from the 1841 census:

Sarah Cooper - Birth: 1834 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Joseph Cooper - Birth: 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England
William Cooper - Birth: 1830 Calverton, Nottingham, England


My Robert Cooper seems to have had children during the 1820s with Sarah Smith - both parents are named in full in these records, all submitted but the one:

Thomas Cooper - Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham
Hannah Cooper - Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Calverton, Nottingham
ANN COOPER - Christening: 27 DEC 1831 Wesleyan Methodist, Calverton, Nottingham
( **extracted** C077481 - also submitted, as 29 dec 1831)
Alice Cooper - Christening: 06 APR 1834 Calverton, Nottingham
Emma Cooper - Gender: Female Christening: 09 OCT 1836 Calverton, Nottingham

- oops, three post-1830 ...

Five in total. Emma and Alice are together in 1841 and with Sarah in 1851.


Most submitted more than once. I hate that Mormons are baptising my ancestors.


Did Robert Cooper desert Sarah Smith (Cooper?) before 1841, and so is that her in the workhouse in Basford, her children with her parents James and Elizabeth Smith in 1841?


The odd bit

REUBEN SMITH - James Smith and Elizabeth, *extracted*
Gender: Male Christening: 24 DEC 1826 Basford, Nottingham, England

There are submitted records for Sarah daughter of James and Elizabeth Smith christened in Calverton variously 14 jan 1799, 14 jan 1800, abt 1796, 16 jan 1800 and 16 feb 1800 (some showing a marriage to Robert Cooper). I hate Mormons.


There is no marriage of a Robert Cooper to an Elizabeth in the IGI.
And no verified Robert Cooper + Elizabeth births in Calverton.


I think the 1841 Robert Cooper with Elizabeth and kids is my man. Anybody feel like second-guessing me? ;)

Okay, here we have an Ancestry tree

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3004314/person/-1564172286?ssrc=

showing Reuben as son of Robert and Sarah and married to Mary Ann Fallows (??). In the list of their children, it omits the two eldest, and for some reason includes my Auntie Dud as "Lilian daughter of Alice Cooper" in the list of children of Reuben and Mary Ann.


Oh ... I see ... that's my cousin in Worksop, messing things up. She's omitted her own ancestor William son of Reuben and Mary Ann! Okay, so much for that one. ;) She has decided to believe the info about Robert Cooper + Sarah Smith, even though there's no evidence. I think everything in that tree is what I gave her from the IGI.


Another tree at Ancestry has Robert 1796's father as Thomas ...


Here's a good one:

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/10359576/person/-619718264

Robert Cooper 1796 as son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr ...

Birth
Calverton, Prince George's, Maryland, USA


Why are people such idiots??? Oh, hey, it gets better; same tree for John Cooper 1749:

Birth
Placé, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France


I guess if you type "place", that's what the great big integrated tree of the entire universe suggests for you -- and you just say "yup!"

Groan and sigh.