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I've probably scared her off even with my attempt at a simplified outline of the tale.

Two siblings (and several others) born with one surname, one of them with a couple of unexplained surnames as middle names; they both change their surname to one of those middle names, apparently for different reasons.

One of them emigrates to Australia, then back to England, then to Canada, and never speaks of his family. The other marries a rich guy who then also changes his and their kids' surname to a fake one, probably hiding from defrauded creditors, and invents a story about where they came from. At least one of her kids ends up in South Africa - and the possible descendant is now in the US midwest.

There may be a novellist in that line, I may have mentioned, possibly the grandson of Ada the actress; I bought one of his books from a South African children's charity on line, but there were no biographical notes. :(

There was definitely a collateral poet - Ada's husband's nephew. Apparently he was a bit of a character around Harrogate in the 20s. I've had the feeling I'm unlikely to find a marriage. Did I ever offer a sample of his verse? Bought two of his books on line, too.

THE FOOL
Death touched me with his fleshless claw,
I was calm and unrebuffed,
And when the Blue Bird flew my way,
I tried to have it stuffed.

When that book came, I read that one aloud to No.1. Then I started wrapping the book back up in its bubble wrap and padded envelope.

"You wrap that up," said No.1. "You bury that in the back yard." A descendant of Ada's husband's uncle, who is himself a poet in Wales, remarked that No.1 was a discerning critic.


Without this bunch, I'd be chasing Ag Labs and workhouse inmates around the countryside. Which I still am, of course. ;)


Well dang. The poet had a sister. FreeBMD has moved along, and I've just found her death in 1930, aged 35, unmarried.

The thing with Ag Labs is they tended to have lots of children, many of whom even survived to have their own. These rich people ... not so much.


btw -- I'm pleased people enjoy the tale!

I think the whole thing is a great lesson in thinking sideways when you're looking for people who didn't want to be found. (Obviously both Ernest and his brother-in-law went to great lengths to make themselves unfindable!) It certainly has been for me! If anybody wonders why I have so many wild theories - or sometimes do find the unfindable - this explains it. ;)

It's only me ...

I just realized I'd never added the info re return from Australia to England (for posterity ...)


Travelled to Australia as, per Lew's find:

MONCK ERNEST Age 42
Arrived APR 1887 Ship: HABSBURG
travelling with:
MONCK ANNIE Age 39
MONCK ERNEST Age 6
MONCK ISA Age 5


B'dy Isa-s.


Here they come back again just over 7 yrs later (transcription courtesy Ancestry):

20 June 1894

Ernest Monch - 42 (found the fountain of youth in Aus)
Arny Monch (Annie) - 41 (really 29ish!)
Rosa Monch (Ross) - 9 (per WWI record should be 10)
Violet Monch ("Isa" on the outbound voyage) - 8 - correct, born late 1885
Sydney Monch (born Aus) - 6
Albert Monch (born Aus) - 2


I'm sure I wheedled somebody into getting me the details there but I don't know what email account I have them stashed in ... here we are, found the image in files, have added ages to the list above.

Alrighty, Hill/Monck fans, get ready to fall over.

I did that tree search here at GR a few days ago ... and the tree owner is actually still current at GR, and actually replied to my PM straight away.

And yes. I am now in touch with a descendant of

Ada Lennox Monck Hill/Monck
(younger sister of my Ernest)
and
Charles Henry Coke/McCock

although she didn't actually know that. ;)

Her ancestor is Rossiter -- Henry Rossiter John Munro Coke / Rossiter M. McCock -- son of Ada and Charles, who did land up in South Africa, and whose one son was Cyril McCock the novelist.

Rossiter's surviving sister Jessie Frances Ada Munro Coke/McCock apparently married and went to the US where she died in childbirth in 1929, and I'm still trying to sort that bit out.

The Coke/McCock tales that have made their way down the tree are a little garbled, but there's no doubt. I have found the family of Ada the Actress!

Even though they've never heard of Ada ... let alone of any other Hills or Moncks ... ;)

Janey, I did fall over!!!!

I wonder if anybody else in her family knows more?

Ozi

It's a small family -- Rossiter had two sons.

One "returned" to Scotland after WWII and married and ... well, what did you expect? ... changed his name. He had three children and died in a house fire in the 1950s. I am going to get onto our excellent Tom here at GR, the expert in all things Scottish, for some help with digging up what records there may be.

The other remained in South Africa and had two daughters. The family history I received is from his hand. The family's own story is that the person I know to have been born Charles Henry Coke, known to later censuses as Charles McCock and apparently to Rossiter in 1907 as Charles Munro (CM) McCock, was ... Vivian Charles Frederick McCock. Where any of that comes from I have no clue!

They apparently know nothing at all about Rossiter's mother, my Ada the Actress.

So I've flung off the bare bones of the story (ha!) to the family member I'm in touch with and am waiting for her to pick herself up off the floor now. ;)

Great heavens!!!!




I nearly said "Goodness Gracious" a la Peter Sellers!!

Janey,

My goodness definately a book in there!

How interesting all those changes in names...goodness I wish my lot had been half as interesting as yours!

Never mind if you ever go a litlle "eccentric" in your old age you can put it down to your exotic roots!

Cheers

Rachelle

have some time up my sleeve. Into mischief. Have you done this search through National Australian Archives. No Ernest available. These are the people with the name Monck who served in the First World War from Australia.

If you go into the Archives click Collection, Name Search and put in Monck and WW1 as the category these will come up. They have all been opened previously and have the digital image available to view the records. Back to try for more mischief!!!

Title
MONCK Charles James : Service Number - 2183 : Place of Birth - Pambula NSW : Place of Enlistment - Nimmitabel NSW : Next of Kin - (Father) MONCK Francis
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK CHARLES JAMES 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983339

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Title
MONCK Edmund Claude : Service Number - 662 : Place of Birth - Ossgar England : Place of Enlistment - Nannup WA : Next of Kin - (Wife) MONCK Mabel Alice
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK EDMUND CLAUDE 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983340

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Title
MONCK Frank Ozmond : Service Number - 3388 : Place of Birth - Melbourne VIC : Place of Enlistment - Perth WA : Next of Kin - (Wife) MONCK Ethel Violet
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK FRANK OZMOND 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983341

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Title
MONCK Lionel John : Service Number - Depot : Place of Birth - Adelaide SA : Place of Enlistment - Adelaide SA : Next of Kin - (Mother) MONCK Mary
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK LIONEL JOHN 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983342

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Title
MONCK Peter Eugene : Service Number - 2184 : Place of Birth - Pambula NSW : Place of Enlistment - Bombala NSW : Next of Kin - (Mother) MONCK Jane
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK PETER EUGENE 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983343

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Title
MONCK Stephen Bertram : Service Number - 2185 : Place of Birth - Pambula NSW : Place of Enlistment - Nimmitabel NSW : Next of Kin - (Father) MONCK Frances
Series number Control symbol Contents date range
B2455 MONCK STEPHEN BERTRAM 1914 - 1920

Access status Location Barcode View digital copy
Open Canberra 7983344

More Mischief. Do you wish to take this further:

He was the son of Samuel, the partner of my Ernest's father. Suddenly, I had a notion of why Ernest might have gone to Australia, and what he might have been doing there:

"On 30 December 1875 at Moonta Bice married Elizabeth Jane Trewenack. Next year he moved to Wilmington in the newly opened up north, to manage a blacksmithing firm for his father-in-law. Two years later he transferred to Port Augusta and in 1881 opened his own agricultural machinery business."

I know people in Wilmington who have lived there for ages.

Do you realize that if your Ernest Hill b. 1851, who became Ernest Monck had had a son Frederick William Hill born about 1889 in London, we would be related by less than 3 degrees of separation.

Relax, well I think relax. My Frederick William Hill born London England was "orphaned early", mother's name is not known. His father was Ernest William Hill, clerk. And that's all I know.

Ta, AuntyS, yes, I've looked into Moncks in Australia, although not with great thoroughness. (There is also a Coke-Hill bunch you can be sure I paid close attention to!!) The only possibility of an Australian connection would be if Ernest's older brother William (not found after 1861) went to Australia, but I'm pretty sure he would have stayed a Hill, as brother James (between William and Ernest) did. Can't be sure, as the Hill to Monck switch seems to have happened between Ernest's 1872 marriage/1873 daughter's birth, as Hill, and Ada's 1875 marriage, as Monck.

But good grief, a Francis. Actually there are a couple in Peter's Essex line, and I tried to claim one, but there was nothing doing. ')

One of those records says "Place of Birth - Ossgar England". It's actually Ongar, and that's the clan of my Monck mentor, Peter in England, who's done a one-name study over many years and who had never heard of my bunch, no b'dy wonder.

Births Dec 1882
Monck Edmund Claud A Billericay 4a 306

1891

Thomas E Monck 33
Sarah Monck 34
Ashley W Monck 10
> Edmund C Monck 8
Florence R Monck 6
Leonard G Monck 4
Gertrude A Monck 2
Christopher T Monck 1

Those are Peter's people - Christopher is his father. Huh. He doesn't have Edmund in his tree! His research comes from back before the internet, so maybe he didn't know about Edmund. I shall have to pass that info on. I haven't been in touch with Peter in a while ... and I'm hoping it's not too late.


As for your Ernest Hill, hahaha, nice try. ;) Not that I wouldn't love to have a circus clown in my tree. It would round it out nicely!


Oh, about the Bice-s -- I've been afraid all along that this was unclear in that post of mine. It was Bice who did all that, the blacksmithing and farm machinery and so on. It's not looking like my Ernest was associated with him, but let me think on't.

Responding from country Australia, out where the Murray River flows. Also meant to ask if you followed up the WW1 records for the Uncle Ross who was killed. That intrigues me because I can not find any reference to him. If you did check what names have you searched under.

Ah ha! Helps if you look in the correct place. From the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

No Surname Rank Service Number Date Of Death Age Regiment/Service Nationality Grave/Memorial Ref. Cemetery/Memorial Name

1 MONCK , ERNEST ROSS Private 225833 04/10/1918 34 Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment) Canadian LXVII. H. 2. ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY

Additional information: Son of Ernest and Annie Monck, of East Ham, Essex, England.

Now there you are, finding things I know! "Ernest Ross" was my mum's uncle and I know all about him from the trip to Australia onward. He's in the 1901 census in England (gives place of birth as Bow, Middlesex) and 1911 in Canada (gives dob April 1884):

http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=92953

His WWI attestation papers are here (he was conscripted, evidently, at the age of 32 -- the Conscription Crisis of WWI is a big event in Cdn history):

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/496992a.gif

-- DOB 28 April 1884, London, England

and his page at the Virtual War Memorial is here:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=497577
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/content/collections/books/bww1/ww1472.jpg

and my mum and brother have visted his grave in Etaples cemetery in France.

Yup, it's his birth I can't find. Ernest and Annie were married in late 1883, so obviously she was pregnant, if the DOB given in 1916 is correct.

One thing I know now, anyhow -- he wasn't Henry Rossiter John Munro Coke / Rossiter Munro McCock under yet another name. ;) The McCock descendant I've found has been back in touch, and that Rossiter - her grandfather, my Ernest's nephew, son of Ada the Actress - definitely had independent existence, having had two sons in South Africa.

There still has to be some connection between the names - some reason why Ernest gave his son the same middle name (Ross, Rossiter) as his sister's son, 5 years later.

As for looking for Ernest Ross Monck's alleged 1884 birth - everywhere, under every imaginable name (esp. including Hill & Monck). No trace. I would be unsurprised if Ernest Augustus, in his paranoia/fear, didn't register the birth at all, except that they did register their next child:

Births Dec 1885
Monck Violet Annie C Mile End 1c 485

Oh, btw, believe it or not, this is *not* my Ernest Ross:

Births Mar 1884
Monck Ernest Holborn 1b 710

He is the son of a William, the son of Cornelius Monck and Mary Woolterton married in 1843 (whom my Monck mentor had catalogued but not connected with the two modern-day Monck families in London he knew of who are descended from them -- that Cornelius was born in Ireland.) And he had several siblings with the same names as my Ernest Ross's siblings, and he was killed in WWI -- I've been in touch with a descendant. No stone unturned!

But for a birth of Ernest Ross, I just dunno.

In 1881, Ernest Hill/Monck (Monk) was in Cheshire, with his widowed mother and motherless daughter. In late 1883, he's getting married in London, to the 14-yrs-younger daughter of a police sergeant (an odd choice, one would have thought) from Romford. (Her brother's great-granddaughter's husband is an active member here at GR!) Puzzling.


Mind you ...

Births Sep 1883
MONK Augustus Ernest Woolwich 1d 1144

Cut all the Waffle Janey,
what you looking for in a few words please?

Edit,,,And if you cant find it,what chance have we mere mortals?

May I ask a question which may be bewilderingly obvious. However being an asker of many questions, mostly daft, and the rest answerable by yes or no, here goes....

I take it you have searched for the birth of Ernest Ross Monck under his mother's maiden name.

There is no birth certificate to be had. His age is being calculated from his age at death in WW1. It is suspected that he may have been on the way when mother and father married. What if he was born a year earlier in 1882 or 1883 and registered under his mothers name.

I said I was probably stating the gollygosh obvious but I have skimmed through the fine print a couple of times without success.

Oh and if you decide to search Ernest Ross Monck under Ernest R. Davies, good luck. There a confounded lot of them to be looked at.

Tsk, Viv! I started out looking for the passage of Ernest & Annie to Australia - before 1890 so couldn't look on FMP myself. Since then, it's been pure entertainment!

I was looking for descendants of Ernest's sibs. I've now found one for each of his sisters, Mary Emma and Ada (the Actress). (Of his surviving brothers, James died in 1873, probably childless, and I haven't been able to trace his widow; William disappeared after 1861 and the TB probably got him too.) I had hoped they might be able to shed some light on the Hill family, and the switch by Ernest and Ada to surname Monck.

The descendant of Mary Emma had never heard the name Hill. She had always been told that Mary Emma Hill, born 1843 in Jersey per the censuses, was a Miss Montmorency born in France.

The descendant of Ada the Actress had never heard the name Hill, or Monck. She knows of her gr-grfather Charles Henry Coke/McCock, but has been told his name was Vivian Charles Frederick Cock and seems never to have heard anything of his wife, her gr-grmother, my Ernest's sister. (She was told that Ada's other surviving child, Jessie, married twice and died in childbirth in the US in 1929, unlikely since she was born in 1881, and I can't find either marriage.)

So there I am! My holy grail has been found -- a descendant for each of the sibs who likely had offspring. And I am not one iota the wiser. ;)

Gotta get my uncle to spit on a stick and find out just what Ernest was, I guess! - Hill, Monck, or ... ?


Oh, and AuntyS, you stop muddying the waters, now. Davies?? Ernest Augustus's wife was Annie Dennis, but yup, there's no shortage of them either.

So the outcome was fair to middle-ing and best of all I dont have to search for anything or look anything up.....

Oh Janey, Now where on earth did I get Davies from. Don't even have them in my tree. OK correct name noted. My apologies. Don't mind muddying the waters a little, complete idiocy is inexcusable.

I just want to put on record in this thread my great appreciation of Lew's contribution to this site and to my search for old Ernest's secrets in particular.

Lew died last week of cancer. I hope she had a chance to peek in here sometime in the last few months and get another giggle.


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1186953