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Jane. Glad you want to continue...thanks no ...do not have any birth certificates....cousins may have some...will ring and ask them ....think its a bit late to ring them tonight though so will do it tomorrow Thanks again Hetty

Hetty good posibility one of these is your George (jnr) Births Mar 1880 -------------------------------- TURNER George Thomas Westminster 1a 535 TURNER George Thomas Shoreditch 1c 144 but until we find out Hettys full name, can't really search for her yet............ also got another possible for 1881: 17 Willow st. Emma Turner abt 1876 Lambeth, Surrey, England Daughter St Margaret London George Turner abt 1847 Lambeth, Surrey, England Head St Margaret London George Turner abt 1879 Westr St Margaret Son St Margaret London CAB DRIVER Susan Turner abt 1851 Lambeth, Surrey, England Wife St Margaret London can't find this family elsewhere, so no good to me yet, lol

Hi Jane, George Thomas in 1880 Westminster sounds right but Im thinking that if it is him on the 1901 sussex census then he would be born 1878 and not 1880. The Willow street one looks right but Im expecting one to turn up with George sen born in Somerset. anyway I will ring my cousins this evening ...they may know a bit more...or even have a certificate. Hetty

Hi Jane, Can you find a marriage between a Mary Buckley with a John Hartley in about 1892/4. Mary was born in 1974 and so I believe was John. Maybe the Lancashire area as they had a child in 1893 born in Manchester. I have their son Ralph's birth cert. born 17th May 1893 in Manchester but that's it. Any help will be much appreciated. Thanks Mary

Hi Mary, do you have this family in 1901 census? i have looked for them to get John & Marys age & bplace, but am coming up with nothing.................... have looked for a marriage in Lancashire area, but this is the only one i can come up with, lol Marriages Dec 1890 --------------------------------- Buckley Ann Oldham 8d 925 HARTLEY John William Oldham 8d 925 are you aware that you can search the BMD indexes yourself on Ancestry even if you dont subscribe to them? it will take some time, and advise you to start with 1893 and work backwards.... good luck Jane

Hi Paul, get ready for the demolition, lol....................... if Marys name was Mary Young, Late Lewis formerley Terrell, would mean her maiden name was Terrell, then married a Mr Lewis before John Young........ ( did check this on some of my certs to confirm this ) so am assuming this is the certificate that you have.... Marriages Jun 1871 ------------------------------ Lewis Mary Newport M 11a 287 Young John Newport M 11a 287 so........she told a pack of lies or its the wrong certificate!!!! and also, if this death of John in Jan 1873 is your John, what are the chances of him being the father of Elizabeth bn Oct 1873, close isn't it, lol !!! 1871 Hester Twiner abt 1848 Caerleon, Monmouthshire, Wales Wife Risca Monmouthshire Robert Twiner abt 1853 Staffordshire, England Brother Risca Monmouthshire William Twiner abt 1843 Herefordshire, England Head Risca Monmouthshire William Twiner abt 1869 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire John Young abt 1845 Wiltshire, England Lodger Risca Monmouthshire i read the rest of the house as TURNER though not Twiner, lol. still working on it......................

Hi Jane Thanks for that info - a few days ago now. I asked: Please could you see if you could find Alfred Catchpole (??dob and place ob) married to Mary Elizabeth (nee Donegani, Sherrif Hales, Shropshire c1855) and married 1895 in Kidderminster. I would like to know if they had any children and if there are birth details of Alfred, occ etc You found Mary at her birth home, now headed by her brother, but saying she was married but no obvious Alfred. I guess that means no kids so far I have since been able to find the birth certificate - as you suggested. It gives Alfred in 1895 as 34(which would make him 1861 ish), a widower and a clothier, living in Shifnal at time of marriage. His father is also Alfred, a grocer. Thanks for your help Jane Jan

Hi Jane. Thanks for the info. I will try to obtain the marriage cert. as that's the nearest I have got so far.I have tried for ages to find them on the 1901 census with no luck. They were all living in Baird Court, Manchester in 1893 (so it says on Ralph's birth cert). so why can't I find them anywhere?. Do you have any ideas please? Thanks Mary

Hi Jan now....... think this is your Alfred in 1891.... Salop fields Alfred Catchpole abt 1862 Kingston on Thames, Surrey, England Head Shifnal Shropshire WIDOW / CLOTHIERS ASST Constance F M Catchpole abt 1888 Wimbledon, Surrey, England Daughter Shifnal Shropshire Harriet Hitchings 1836 Worcester, servant Shifnal, Shropshire 1881 Kingston, Surrey Richmond park rd Alfred Catchpole 1836 b. Whitechapel. commerciall tea labeller Alfred 1861 Kingston, Surrey drapers assistant Edith 1871 ' Elizabeth 1837 ' Ernest 1866 ' Frank 1867 ' Henry 1863 ' Mary Ann 1874 ' and eventually, 1901 Shifnal, Shropshire 7 Market place Alfred Catchpole 1861 kingston on thames, Surrey clothiers manager Mabel 1888 wimbledon, Surrey Ellen Millet 1852 servant, Kidderminster, Worcester let me know if you would like me to go further back with these wont you.........

Hi Jane Thanks that's great for now - mystery solved. Hope you got my message too Bye for now and thanks again Jan

Hi Jane. I spoke to one cousin this evening and she does not have any certificates but she does think that George and Hetty junior were born in London.. . we agreed that their accents were London and not Somerset...we all agree on Hetty Turner's birthdate of 12th of January and George Thomas on 22 of December but do not know the exact year....[.though I think it must be 1878/9 for George and 1880/1 for Hetty.].....don't know if this is any help?? George Junior did put London Middlesex as his and Hetty's birth place on the 1901 Sussex census..[assuming it is them].. so I suppose that we should go with that.. . .We all seem to think that Hetty's name was just Hetty and not Harriet ect... although George did call her Ett or Ettie... I haven't tried my Aunty yet...I will do that tomorrow evening and hope that she can help enlighten it further. where do we go from here then Jane?....is it possible to find them by their birth dates if we can't pinpoint a birthplace... do you think? I will look in again tomorrow evening ...hopefully with some more news... Thankyou for your help then. night night. Hetty

Hetty, am going to search the birth indexes later on, hoping it wont take too long, helps having the exact dates of birth though, thanks. so check back later won't you - wont be starting it till after 8pm tonight though..................... speak to you later Jane

Hi Jane, Thanks for the possible John Young 1871 Census results. Typical ! he is a bl**dy lodger which leads me to yet another dead end if this is the right John Young. Yes, I have the following marriage certificate Lewis Mary Newport M 11a 287 Young John Newport M 11a 287 and she is either a liar or I have the wrong certificate. and yes, there are pretty much 9 months between John's Death (If I have the right John) and the birth of Elizabeth Ann Young so it is a close call. Can you find any TERRELL people in 1871 Census? Elizabeth Ann Young's birth Certificate shows EMMA TERRELL as occupier of the house she was born in, although it just says RISCA as place of birth. If Mary Young was born Mary Terrell then Emma could be her Mother, Sister or Aunt. Of course, if Mary Young was really Mary Lewis and married a TERRELL then maybe Emma is her sister-in-law that John didnt know about. Thanks for what you have found so far but please find more and talk aloud. If my family are a bunch of deceitful fibbers then i want to know about it. Paul

Hetty right............. this is the only George Thomas i could find in the right area: George Thomas Turner - March 1879, Tenterden 2a 719 and this one a bit out of your dates though George Thomas Turner - June 1881, Mile End 1c 522 checked dates from 1877 - 1880 not many Hettys at all..... but found these: Hetty Mehetabel F. Turner - June 1880, Edmonton 3a 266 checked dates from 1880 - 1882 not much help is it, lol sorry Jane

Could you look up the following individual on Ancestry in 1861: William Haigh b abt 1831, Yorkshire, England, Head, residing in Hipperholme with Brighouse, Yorkshire Thanks George

Hi George, is this your man?? Waring Green Sarah Gomersall abt 1792 Yorkshire, England Servant Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire WIDOW Arthur Abbott Haigh abt 1857 Brighouse, Yorkshire, England Son Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire William Haigh abt 1831 Southowram Parish of Halifax, Yorkshire, England Head Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire BUTCHER ( status given as married !) Class: RG9; Piece: 3276; Folio: 55; Page: 12;

Yeeeeeeeeeesssssssss, you have just knocked down a huge brickwall for me, ages ago I found his wife and son in Rochdale with rellies in 1861, but did not know her hubbies name till I received the sons birth cert today and now I finally have pinned him down in 1861 and another child too :~))) George

Hi Jane, I wonder if you would mind looking in the 1851 census for Joseph Small (dob not known) Christiana Small age 47 born Devon William Small age 13. born St.James,London and any other Smalls that lived in London. In the 1861 they were living in the St.James area, Westminster. Many thanks, linda

Hi Linda here you go: 1851 Weavers / Beavers ct (or something completely different, lol) Christian Small abt 1804 Exeter Westgate Wife St Anne Soho Middlesex Joseph Small abt 1802 Exeter Westgate Head St Anne Soho Middlesex SHOEMAKER Louisa Small abt 1836 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Daughter St Anne Soho Middlesex Richard Small abt 1844 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Son St Anne Soho Middlesex William Small abt 1838 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Son St Anne Soho Middlesex too many Smalls in London to list them all for you, sorry Jane

Marna, here you are: 1841 Southgate George Savage abt 1826 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk AG LAB James Savage abt 1830 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Maria Savage abt 1828 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Mary Savage abt 1791 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Robert Savage abt 1791 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk SHEPHERD Thomas Savage abt 1832 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Jane