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I've been doing my tree for years but still not been able to find birth records of Thomas Turner 1832 & John !834 I have them in 1841 with their father Thomas and his wife Ann with a daughter Mary found her birth on GRO 1840 MMN Hogin But Thomas married her in 1838 in Manchester .
So it looks as though Thomas was married before Is their a site that I can check for births 1832 , most are 1837 onwards familysearch was good but I can't follow it these days
Any help would be appreciated

Thank you

You won’t find births - too early, as I’m sure you are aware. The only records pre-July 1837 are baptisms.

If Thomas had been married before, the marriage cert would say so.

In any case, they could be the woman’s children from before her marriage to Turner. 1841 does not record relationships……you have made assumptions, which may, or may not, be accurate.

Please C&P 1841 for our info.

Ok just thought I'd give it a go and make sure

Thank you

You could try www.freereg.org.uk. It is a sister site to freebmd.
If you have an idea where they may have been born you could try the local FHS to see if they have other records.

The first step is to find out whether Thomas snr had been married before, otherwise, the surname at birth for the boys will probably not be Turner

TURNER, MARY mmn HOGIN
GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 20 Page 497


Mary Turner
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Mary Turner
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Manchester
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
Neighbors:
Piece: 576
Book: 4
Folio: 9
Page number: 12
Household Members Age
Thos Turner 25
Ann Turner 25
Thos Turner 9
John Turner 7
Mary Turner 1

The whole family born in Manchester, per 1851:

Thomas Turner
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Thomas Turner
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1808
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Turner
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration District: Manchester
Sub-registration District: London Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 1w
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 97
Piece: 2228
Folio: 433
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Turner 43
Ann Turner 39
Thomas Turner 18
John Turner 17
Mary Turner 12
Harriet Turner 7
Elizabeth Turner 5
Edward Turner 2.


Parents' marriage as mentioned in OP:

Thomas Turner
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Thomas Turner
Registration Year: 1838
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: 455
Records on Page:
Name
Ann Hogin
Thomas Turner

Sylann -

You have this baptism date for Thomas on your Ancestry tree - though you haven't uploaded the record.

Thomas Turner
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911
Name: Thomas Turner
Baptism Date: 15 Jun 1832
Parish: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Father: John Turner [warehouseman ]
Mother: Hannah Turner
Register Type: Bishop's Transcripts
Reference Number: Drm/2/161

However, that's not the correct one, as I assume you've realised.

In 1841 your Thomas's father is a carder, and also at Thomas's marriage, and at brother John's marriage.
In 1851 he's a card grinder.
Not a warehouseman.

That father is JOHN…not Thomas

Yes, that's another good reason why it's not the correct baptism!

Thank you

Yes I was considering That one as I did find a marriage Think the name was Hannah Matthews T....... but as you say the occupation wasn't right? and the name unless it was John Thomas ?Thomas John
Just thought I'd try again another brick wall that stays

Thank you

Have you considered purchasing a copy of the 1838 marriage cert?

Yes I have infact Emailed them yesterday to find out what a marriage certificate from 1838 would tell me It's no good getting it if it just has their names
Just been looking at the censuses I have for them and Thomas is a carder etc. on alldocuments and censuses But I can't find them in 1861 , 1871 Ann is a widow

It has their names, ages - although in those days if they were over 21, it often just said ‘full’, marital status, occupations, addresses and fathers’ names and occupations - as they do now. Plus, of course, the names of the witnesses, which may or may not be of any use.

That was why I suggested it would be worthwhile!

If you look on freebmd, you can confirm what I’ve said.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/Certificates.html

Their last child:

TURNER, JOSEPH mmn HOGIN
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 20 Page 689


Joseph Turner
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Joseph Turner
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 12 Dec 1851
Baptism Place: Saint Andrew Ancoats,Manchester,Lancashire,England
Father: Thomas Turner [labourer ]
Mother: Ann
FHL Film Number: 559149, 599150

Address: Berry Street [ as in 1851 census - 7 Berry Street ]


So Thomas was still alive then - but it's not much help in finding his death, with such a common name, and uncertain YOB - c1808-1816

The family were in Berry Street in both 1851 (at no. 7), and in 1871, at no. 13 - so I would guess they were also in Berry Street in 1861 - but can only find a few Berry Street numbers in 1861, after much trawling through the census.

FMP offers address search for all censuses - not at 7 or 13 in 1861

Name: James France
Birth Year: abt 1846
Marriage Date: 1 Jul 1866
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: Henry France
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Turner
Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Turner
Archive Roll: 734

Both parties were residing in Berry St
Bride's father occupation Card Grinder ( does not say deceased)

Both of these are probably too old...........

TURNER, THOMAS 63
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 314
TURNER, THOMAS 64
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 186

It's interesting that Elizabeth is listed as Turner and unmarried in 1871 census, even though she had married in 1866 and her husband is in the household.
Presumably enumerator error.


The son Edward's marriage cert says his father was Thomas Turner, grinder, and doesn't say deceased - so we can't go by that - at least not if Ann was telling the truth in 1871:

Edward Turner
in the Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral)
Name: Edward Turner
Birth Year: abt 1850
Marriage Date: 22 Mar 1874
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: Thomas Turner
Spouse's Name: Sarah Crosby
Spouse's Father's Name: Henry Crosby
Archive Roll: 741

Thank you
I've tried 1861 for all the children and found nothing I saw a death for Thomas 1858 ? that is one reason why I wanted the 1861
Do you have any names of people living in Berry st 1861 so I can get the census up and possibly look at all the names of people living on that street and streets around that area.
I've noticed that you can't always go off certificates doesn't say if deceased when they are and having different names??

Thank you

TURNER, THOMAS 52
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 153

Get the cert for informant's details

Which site are you using to access censuses?
If it's FMP, simply use the address search facility