Find Ancestors

A big thanks to all of you on all the information on Arthur Charles Ballard Syrett it is all much appreciated. I am wondering now did Arthur re-marry? From the information in 1939 he was living at the same address on his death certificate at 35 Chadworth House Lever Street in 1956 if this the correct Arthur?

i think that is arthur in 1939 with alice as the ages match the other 1939 reg says alice is born 1865

On the 1939 Register, the years of birth are often out by a year or two - human error by either the person listed, or the person filling in the forms.
Day and month are more often correct.

Do you have Alice Minshull's birth cert, for her exact DOB?

The DOB on this death matches the DOB on the 1939 Register:

Deaths Sep 1983
SYRETT ALICE 23AU1889 ISLINGTON 13 1380

So either -
1) Alice went back to Arthur after a time with John Sawyer, and either lied or was mistaken about her year of birth
or
2) this is a different Alice.

If it matters, there's no middle name on the death record.


EDIT:


But, as already shown, John Sawyer with wife Alice (1865) and children Charles, Mary, and Rose, are at 51 Retford Road in 1939 - so two different Alices.

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Maud Catharine Sawyer
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 6 Aug 1910
Baptism Date: 4 Sep 1910
Baptism Place: England, St John, Hoxton, Hackney
Father:
John Sawyer
Mother:
Alice Sawyer.

Carpet machine maker and living at 33 New North Road.

Record Baptism.
Charles George Sawyer
20 Sep 1903 Hoxton St Saviour Hackney.

John and Alice Sawyer,,,,,,a cabnet maker..

Marriage of the daughter Grace:

Grace Sawyer
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Grace Sawyer
Marriage Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1907
Marriage Date: 7 May 1927
Marriage Place: St Mark, Shoreditch, Hackney, England
Father:
John Syrett , packer
Spouse:
James George Carey


In the margin there's a note to say "for "Grace Sawyer" read "Grace Jane Syrett otherwise Sawyer".
Signed by Rev Leonard Joyce and Grace Jane Carey , Feb 7th 1929

Marriages Jun 1927 (>99%)
CAREY James G Syrett Shoreditch 1c 177
CAREY James G Sawyer Shoreditch 1c 177

To recap:

Alice Hannah Minshull born July-Sept 1886.

The two deaths again for reference:

Matching the Alice in 1939 with Arthur Syrett:

Deaths Sep 1983
SYRETT ALICE 23AU1889 ISLINGTON 13 1380


Matching the Alice in 1911 and 1939 with John Sawyer:


Deaths Dec 1970
SAWYER Alice Hannah 30No1882 Dartford 5f 972


Neither fits with an 1886 birth.
The day and month of birth for the Syrett death does fit with the Minshull birth.

As has already been illustrated, both parties were not averse to lying

The name of the informant on the death cert may prove enlightening.

Odd?


ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Arthur John Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Aug ***1905****-----born July 18.
Baptism Place: England, Bethnal Green St John, Tower Hamlets
Father:
Arthur Charles Syrett
Mother:
Alice Hannah Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers.

Sponsor ---Amelia Minshull.

did Alice flit between John Sawyer and Arthur Syrett.?--possibly John Sawyer had been married to an Alice in 1903 re-above baptism..

ErikaH -
yes, but which death cert??

If both Alices are the same woman, as seems to be the case, going by the children, she's listed with both men in 1939, with different DOBs. Takes "not averse to lying" to new heights!

I had wondered if perhaps Arthur and John were one and the same (and also lying about DOB) - but that would only work if he had two addresses, which can't be the case.

Arthur John's birth is on page one, as is his school admission, by which time Alice was living with Sawyer, and his forename (NOT his surname) appears on the record

Record Baptism.
Charles George Sawyer
20 Sep 1903 Hoxton St Saviour Hackney.

John and Alice Sawyer,,,,,,a cabnet maker..




ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Arthur John Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Aug ***1905****-----born July 18.
Baptism Place: England, Bethnal Green St John, Tower Hamlets
Father:
Arthur Charles Syrett
Mother:
Alice Hannah Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers.

Sponsor ---Amelia Minshull..


with the above two baptisms,,,,,,2 years apart,,,,,,the 1903 lists Alice and John,Sawyer,,,,,,,also accounting 18 months for 2 pregencies...something doesnt quite add up.


1905 lists Alice and Arthur,,,,,,,,,Syrett,

Don't know if this is the same couple ??

1931-34, Arthur C Syrett with Alice (no middle name) Syrett at 56 Northampton Street, Finsbury.
1935 - 38, he's at the same address, with Alice, and also Charles Arthur Syrett.
1939, the three of them are at 50 Nigel Buildings, Portpool Lane, Holborn.


Birth of Charles Arthur ???

Births Sep 1913 (>99%)
Syrett Charles A Ballard Holborn 1b 1109

I don't see any Syrett/Ballard marriage - is mmn Ballard a coincidence?


Charles Arthur Syrett
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Charles Arthur Syrett
Death Age: 92
Birth Date: 24 Jul 1913
Registration Date: Oct 2005
Registration District: Hastings and Rother
Inferred County: East Sussex
Register Number: A85A
District and Subdistrict: 456/1A
Entry Number: 118
.

ADDED:

The birth on GRO shows him as illegitimate, and doesn't mention the name Ballard, allthough Ballard is shown as mmn in the image of the Index page on FreeBMD:

SYRETT, CHARLES ARTHUR -
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1109

Alice Sawyer, per the 1939 Register, later changed her surname to Perrin.

??
Marriages Sep 1956 (>99%)
PERRIN William SAWYER Stoke N'ton 5d 1555
SAWYER Alice H PERRIN Stoke N'ton 5d 1555


???? A third possible death of Alice ?? (If she's the same person with all three partners.)

Deaths Sep 1968 (>99%)
Perrin Alice H 84 Hackney 5b 405


With Alice at 4 Finmere House, Woodberry Down Estate.

William Perrin
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: William Perrin
Electoral Date: 1958
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
County or Borough: Hackney, England

Same in 1959.


??? I expect the 1959 ER would have been compiled in 1958.

Deaths Dec 1958 (>99%)
PERRIN William 70 Hackney 5c 681



Alice is still at 4 Finmere House , alone, in 1962:

Alice Perrin
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Alice Perrin
Electoral Date: 1962
Street Address: 4 Allerdale [ 4 Finmere House on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
County or Borough: Hackney, England
Reference Number: LCC/PER/B/2831

Also in 1960 and 1963.

This maybe Alices birth,

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Alice Anna Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 15 Aug 1886
Baptism Place: England, Bunhill Row St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romes Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.

and siblings.

me: Amelia Louisa Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 13 May 1883
Baptism Place: England, St Clement, City Road, Islington
Father:
Charles Momeo Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catherine Minshull.

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Grace Jane Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Nov 1887
Baptism Place: England, Bunhill Row St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romes Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catharine Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.


ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Add or update information
Report a problem
Name: Albert Sydney Minshull
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 9 Nov 1890
Baptism Place: England, Clerkenwell St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romeo Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catherine Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.

following on family names with her own children./

just pucked out because of middle name.


Albert Walter Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 3 Jul 1874
Baptism Place: England, Hoxton St Saviour, Hackney
Father:
John Ballard Syrett.>>>>><
Mother:
Alice Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers

John Sawyer on London ER:

1937 - at 51 Retford Street, as in 1939, with Alice.

Still there in 1946, with Alice, Margaret, and Mary - all Sawyer.
And in 1947, all three of them.
1950 & 1954, only John and Alice, same address.


??? Maybe ??
Deaths Mar 1955 (>99%)
SAWYER John 79 Shoreditch 5d 594

Arthur Syrett had also died in 1956.
Alice (assuming she had indeed been juggling two partners) was therefore doubly free to marry William Perrin in 1956 - already posted.


Marriage of daughter Margaret G, born 1924-5 (birth posted on page 1):

Margaert G Sawyer
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Margaert G Sawyer
Registration Date: Oct 1947
[Nov 1947]
[Dec 1947]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Spouse: Stanley R Wilkinson
Volume Number: 5d
Page Number: 1240


Margaret Gladys Wilkinson
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Margaret Gladys Wilkinson
Death Age: 68
Birth Date: 30 Dec 1924
Registration Date: Mar 1993
Registration District: Weymouth
Inferred County: Dorset
Register Number: B2D
District and Subdistrict: 4331B
Entry Number: 290

Arthur in India in 1911 ??

Charles Syrett
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Charles Syrett
Age in 1911: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Birth Place: St Pancras, Mx
Search Photos:
Country: England
Rank: Private
Military Unit: Infantry
Registration District Number: 641
ED, institution, or vessel: India
Piece: 34988


It says he's single - but I seem to remember reading somewhere that army privates were all listed officially as single even if they weren't?
And if Alice had left him for John Sawyer, then perhaps he was, technically.

However, this was the 3rd Middlesex Regiment, which doesn't match his 1901 army record posted on page 1, which says he was with the Royal Garrison Artillery.

Unless he left the RGA, and joined up again later, chances are that isn't him in 1911.

He was only with the RGA for two months, as per my post on page one - they kicked him out for lying about his age. Hardly had time even to complete basic training ;-) ;-)

Oh yes, missed that.
So 1911 above may well be him.

Working back.............not a direct line to Arthur

1939

John W Synett 02 May 1909 Male Bricklayer Labourer Heavy Worker Married 20 1
Euphemia M Synett 05 Mar 1912 Female Machinist Hand Bag Married 20 2



SYRETT, JOHN WILLIAM BRIND
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 147

Marriages Jun 1898 (>99%)
BRIND Emma Mile End 1c 774
Syrett Thomas Edwin Mile End 1c 774

SYRETT, THOMAS EDWIN BURNS
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 635

1911
17 Wennington Road Bethnal Green, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex
Thomas Syrett Head Married Male 35 1876 Wood Cutting Machinist Bethnal Green London
Emma Syrett Wife Married Female 35 1876 - Bethnal Green London
Emma Syrett Daughter - Female 12 1899 - Bethnal Green London
Thomas Syrett Son - Male 9 1902 - Bethnal Green London
Alfred Syrett Son - Male 8 1903 - Bethnal Green London
Amelia Syrett Daughter - Female 6 1905 - Bethnal Green London
Evelyn Syrett Daughter - Female 4 1907 - Bethnal Green London
John Syrett Son - Male 2 1909 - Bethnal Green London
May Syrett Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Bethnal Green London

Name: Arthur Syrett
Gender: Male
Age: 5
Birth Date: 13 Sep 1884
Admission Date: 21 Oct 1889
School: Hamond Square School
Father: Charles Syrett
Notes: Hammond Square School opened in 1873. Remodelled in 1912 and later renamed Burbage Primary School