Find Ancestors

Paul - have sent p.m.

Dea x

On 1911 census we found William's first wife Harriet with 2 children - Martha + William.

I have found Martha's details and will post info later but this is important because I have found the William we are looking for back with Harriet on 1939.

As we discovered from their marriage details, he appears to be quite a bit older than he later claims, (we will find proof of that when we track down his birth reg.).


1939 - names should be HOLLAND !!!

William Halland's life in 1939
7 Beckett Street, Bolton C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Halland 21 Feb 1878 Male Pedlar Married 70 1
Harriet Halland 09 Jul 1878 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 70 2

NEXT DOOR:

William Halland's life in 1939
9 Beckett Street, Bolton C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Halland 18 Apr 1906 Male General Labourer Cotton Mill Married 71 1 (Special Constable Bolton ...)
Louise (Dorothy) Halland 27 Dec 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 71 2
Audrey J Crompton (Halland) 04 Jun 1933 Female At School Single 71 3
Nigel D Halland 13 Jul 1935 Male At School Single 71 4

They are all still at Beckett St. as in 1911.

Marriage: 14 Feb 1931 St Luke, Halliwell, Lancashire, England
William Holland - 24, Warehouseman, Bachelor, 7 Beckett Street
Dorothy Louise Corbin - 21, Domestic Servant, Spinster, Lostock Dean, Hollywood Road, Heaton
Groom's Father: William Holland, Traveller
Bride's Father: Harry Corbin, Dairyman
Witness: Frank Jackson; Phyllis May Corbin
Married by Banns by: Arthur J. Brown Vicar
Register: Marriages 1928 - 1939, Page 25, Entry 49


Just off to 'tie down' William Snr.'s birth - will return later..............

Dea x

My heads in a spin now !!!

All I can say is well done I don' t know how you have done all this in the time.

Can I ask you what Genealogy sites you use and which is the best one for me to use I have in the past used all the usual ones but have not been able to get the info you have.

i'll be on again later prob early evening

Paul

Bye the way I am in Cheadle Cheshire where are you? don't have to say if you don't want.

Just popped in as I am still chasing William ;-)

I think all the info on this so far has come from either FindMyPast, which I think you have? or LancsOPC site but when I list out everything in order I will include where I found things from.

I have been to Cheadle, Cheshire many times when I was small - I am originally from Salford but have moved (via South Wales), and am now in the Midlands.

Back to the search now - see you later.........

Dea x

Just putting together what we have on William so far so that it is easier to follow:

MARRIAGE:
William Holland to Fanny Griffiths on 5th July 1919 at St. James' Parish Church, Moss side, Manchester:

William Holland - 35, Batchelor , occupation - 'Scaler'. (later army records mentioned him as a 'Railway Scaler')
Groom's Father - William Holland (decd.) - Horse Dealer
Fanny Griffiths - 34, Spinster, no occupation.
Bride's Father - Alfred Strickland (decd.) - Wheelright.
Address for both - 159 Claremont Rd., Moss side.
Witnesses: Joseph Strickland, Elizabeth Strickland.
(image of cert can be seen on FMP)

NB - although Fanny was marked as 'Spinster', she was in fact a widow.
She had been married, in 1904 to Francis Richard Griffiths who was later 'Killed in Action' in WW1 - 29th Nov., 1917.
There had been many children to the marriage.



ARMY RECORDS:
(images on FMP)

British Army Service Records
First name(s) William
Last name Holland
Age 30
Birth year 1885
Service number 4/23463
Regiment Lancashire Fusiliers
Unit / Battalion 3rd, 2nd Battalion
Year 1915
Residence town Manchester
Residence county Lancashire
Residence country England


I have compared the recruit's signature to the one on the marriage cert to Fanny and I believe they match

Maggie Stevens is mentioned but named as his 'unmarried wife' and they have a daughter Florence born 12/12/14 (Florence died 5th June, 1916).

He suffered a gunshot wound to the head in 1917 and his earning capacity reduced to 40 % - discharged 20/9/18.

Address ***159 Claremont Rd., Moss side !! *** This is the same as on the marriage cert to Fanny in 1919 so we KNOW it is the right one.

SO - Maggie is not his first wife as they didn't marry but the fact that he was already married was probably why ?



This is his first marriage:
Marriage: 18 May 1901 Park Street Wesleyan Methodist, Bolton, Lancashire, England
William Holland - 23, Self Actor Minder, Bachelor, 41 Musgrave Road, Bolton
Harriet Hough - 22, Card Room Hand, Spinster, 98 Chorley Old Road, Bolton
Groom's Father: William Holland, Farrier
Witness: Thomas Lloyd Hammond; Charlotte Whitehead
Married by Certificate by: D. A. de Mouilpied Minister Joseph Brunt Registrar
Register: Marriages 1899 - 1908, Page 16, Entry 32
Source: LDS Film 2411397
(from Lancs OPC site)



On 1911 census we found William's first wife Harriet with 2 children - Martha + William at 7 Beckett St. Bolton

She is still there in 1939 and they are back together!


1939 - names should be HOLLAND !!!

William Halland's life in 1939
7 Beckett Street, Bolton C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Halland 21 Feb 1878 Male Pedlar Married 70 1
Harriet Halland 09 Jul 1878 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 70 2

NEXT DOOR:

William Halland's life in 1939
9 Beckett Street, Bolton C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Halland 18 Apr 1906 Male General Labourer Cotton Mill Married 71 1 (Special Constable Bolton ...)
Louise (Dorothy) Halland 27 Dec 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 71 2
Audrey J Crompton (Halland) 04 Jun 1933 Female At School Single 71 3
Nigel D Halland 13 Jul 1935 Male At School Single 71 4


Marriage: 14 Feb 1931 St Luke, Halliwell, Lancashire, England
William Holland - 24, Warehouseman, Bachelor, 7 Beckett Street
Dorothy Louise Corbin - 21, Domestic Servant, Spinster, Lostock Dean, Hollywood Road, Heaton
Groom's Father: William Holland, Traveller
Bride's Father: Harry Corbin, Dairyman
Witness: Frank Jackson; Phyllis May Corbin
Married by Banns by: Arthur J. Brown Vicar
Register: Marriages 1928 - 1939, Page 25, Entry 49




So, - Up until around 1906 William was with his first wife Harriet at Beckett St Bolton. He then went missing for a number of years during which time he joined the army (c1915 - 1918) and had a relationship with a Maggie Stevens (Stephens), producing a daughter in 1914 who died in 1916.

He left the army in 1918 and his address was 159 Claremont Rd. Moss side. - He was still at that address when he 'married' Fanny in 1919.

In 1920 he was found guilty of Bigamy and imprisoned for 9 calander months. (He had previously served 1 month in 1909 and 3 months in 1910 - both for neglecting his family)
He was employed as a clerk in 1920 and said he was 37 years old, (so born c 1883 ?)

We know this is all the same man but before he joined the army his year of birth was c 1878 but on joining the army it became c 1885.

The difficulty is finding his birth. I doubt the 1885 date as this would have made him 16 years of age marrying a woman of 23 (not impossible but unlikely).
He also reverts back to an 1878 birth on the 1939 census.

He has been fairly consistant with his father's occupation i.e. Horse Dealer, or Farrier also named William. I have found several references to a Farrier called William Holland which I will put on a separate post so as not to confuse.

Can anyone please see if they can find a birth for William c 1878?

Dea x

This is the William I am considering but I can't find a birth reg. !!! :


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
14, Shaw Street, Great Bolton, Bolton, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Eliza Bogle Head Single Female 61 1820 Seamstress Ireland
Ann J Holland Daughter Married Female 27 1854 Winder Cutter Bolton, Lancashire, England
William Holland Grand Son Single Male 4 1877 - Salford, Lancashire, England


Births Jun 1854 (>99%)
Bogle Ann Jane Bolton 8c 290


Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
BOGLE, ANN JANE MACDOWELL
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BOLTON UNION Volume 08C Page 290



Marriages Jun 1875 (>99%)
Bogle Ann Jane Salford 8d 97 Scan available - click to view
HOLLAND William Salford 8d 97 Scan available - click to view


???
Deaths Sep 1890 - Not sure if this is her as age is wrong !!! ???????????
Holland Ann Jane 33 Bolton 8c 266



In 1891 William is with his aunt:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
James Street, Great Bolton, Bolton, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ellen Bogle Head Married Female 31 1860 Weaver Cotton Lancashire, England
Herbert Bogle Son - Male 4 1887 - Lancashire, England
William Morrison Boarder Married Male 76 1815 Weaver Cotton Scotland
William Holland Nephew - Male 14 1877 Little Piecer Lancashire, England

Marriages Jun 1879 (>99%)
Bogle Alexander Bolton 8c 413
Browne Ellen Bolton 8c 413


BOGLE, HERBERT BROWN
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in BOLTON Volume 08C Page 461

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
BOGLE Herbert BROWN Great Bolton Bolton GB/3/18

BOGLE, ALEXANDER JAMES MCDOWELL ........................................ Alexander is Ann Jane's brother !
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in BOLTON Volume 08C Page 264


Can anyone help find anything on the William who married Ann Jane Bogle please?

I 'believe' he could have been born c 1851 and he was a farrier.

This is the one who I think is 'our' William's father and he may or may not be the one who married Ann Jane Bogle (but I think he is).

William Holland (52), farrier, was sent to gaol for 14 days a charge of obtaining false and fraudulent pretences from Edward Keightley a pony and a set of harnesses on May 8th.
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser 18 July 1903.

I have a couple more 'Court related' bits on him somewhere but can't find them just now so will add tomorrow.............

Any and all help welcome on this please.

Dea x

Do you mean below Dea?...

Chris :)

Birth
HOLLAND, WILLIAM BOGLE
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 115


Baptism: 10 Sep 1854 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Jane Bogle - Daughter of Robert Bogle & Eliza
Abode: Great Bolton
Occupation: Over Looker
Baptised by: William Booker Curate
Register: Baptisms 1853 - 1856, Page 105, Entry 840
Source: LDS Family Search


Burial Register summary

Holland Ann Jane
Burial date 07 July 1890
Location Lancashire

https://www.deceasedonline.com/

(credits would be needed)

Ohhh - thank you Chris now why couldn't I find that birth for William ????

Mind you, it doesn't look so good to be him now as the date is rather early???

Yes - that is the birth and death for Ann Jane which I think is a good fit but the reg says she is 33 when should be 35 / 36 so I am not completely sure.

Thanks for your help.

Dea x

EDIT - Argghh - Silly me - I did have that birth, along with those of his 3 siblings, - Robert, John Thomas, and Alice who all died at or soon after birth. - It was another William's birth that I had been unable to find ! - Apologies Chris..... x
This one has really had me going round in circles! - don't we just love it though !!! ;-)

Dea x

(lol, Dea, sometimes we get 'so into it' our brains get scrambled, I think!)

Chris :)

(great newspaper find that)

Actually though, the more I think about it 'our' William made so many changes to his age over the years I would be very surprised if even he could remember what year he was actually born so date of 1878 on 1939 index (which in itself is often incorrect) is absolutely not proof that it isn't the right one. :-)

Dea x

The extra info I promised on William Snr. (I am sure there is more to find!) :

(purchased)MANCHESTER CITY SESSIONS.
William Holland (52), farrier, was sent to gaol for 14 days a charge of obtaining false and fraudulent pretences from Edward Keightley a pony
18 July 1903 - Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Adver

MANCHESTER CITY SESSIONS.
.......said he would never have dreamt of stealing he had sober. ... , conviction forty years ago was mentioned against William Holland (52). farrier, who pleaded guilty to obtaining possession cf a pony by means of false pretence. " I don't try to discourage people
15 July 1903 - Manchester Evening News - Manchester, Lancashi


The Court register can be seen here and it gives details of the other convictions:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FCCC%2FHO140%2F225%2F00613&parentid
=TNA%2FCCC%2F2B%2FHO140%2F00397331

Record Transcription:
England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935

First name(s) William
Last name Holland
Occupation Farrier
Age 52
Birth year 1851
Year 1903
Date 15 Jul 1903
Court Manchester
Place -
County Lancashire
Victim's first name(s) Edward
Victim's last name Keightley
Series HO140
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace For The Year 1903
Piece number 225
Record set England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935
Category Institutions & organisations
Subcategory Prison Registers
Collections from Great Britain, England
© Findmypast


The details on the above record show that this is also him:

MANCHESTER SPRING ASSIZES.
After further consideration, jury found the prisoner not guilty, and was discharged. ALLEGED ROBBERY OF £43 WITH VIOLENCE. John Dewhurst, on bail, William Holland, 26, labourer, and James Brown, 22, groom, were indicted on a charge of having in Manchester
22 May 1886 - Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser - Manchester, Lancashire, England

(I have posted a copy of this article on keepsafes - link here):

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/101031250

As you will see - his son was not the only one who constantly changed his age, his address, and his occupation !

Dea x

(just to add, Maddie posted a Son, Francis Richard Griffiths 1909, he goes to Australia, 1929, last address, 159 Claremont Road, Moss Side, Manchester. occ. Labourer)

Chris :)

Edits, Western Australia, Death 1981, a couple of Electoral entries, with a Myrtle Eileen)

(he arrived 1929, Feb. 5th. Fremantle. Ship, 'Otranto'.

Can I add that my dad recognised (Frank Richard 1909) as his brother his father was Francis Richard Griffiths killed in war.

Seems I am decended from a long line of cheats,liers and vagabonds Thanks to everyone looking for me

There are an awful lot of Court and Prison records which 'could' belong to William Snr. but I was interested in one which mentioned that his mother was called Margaret and he was born in Salford.

I think this one was for 'fighting in Salford' in May 1875.

An address of 4 Sayer?? or Sager ?? St was mentioned but I can't find it.

Anyway I found a Margaret with a son William in Salford on 1871 census and interestingly William was a 'Blacksmith's' Apprentice which would fit very well with him becoming a Farrier ??


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Ogden Street, Salford, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
James Wilson Head - Male 25 1846 - Lancashire, England
Eliza Wilson Wife - Female 23 1848 - Lancashire, England
Harriet Wilson Daughter - Female 4 1867 - Lancashire, England
Benjamin Wilson Son - Male 0 1871 - Lancashire, England
Margaret Holland Head - Female 38 1833 - Lancashire, England **** b. Whitefield
William Holland Son - Male 17 1854 - Lancashire, England **** Blacksmith's Apprentice !!! b. Salford
Jane Holland Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Lancashire, England b. Salford

Any help in proving a connection would be very welcome !

I will see if I can find anything else in any of the other Prison Records.....

Thanks,

Dea x

EDIT - Looks like Margaret could have been an 'Appleby':

(These records from GRO site)...
HOLLAND, WILLIAM HENRY APPLEBY
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 23


HOLLAND, JANE APPLEBY
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 36 Occasional Copy: A
HOLLAND, JANE APPLEBY
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 66


Dea x

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1853
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
APPLEBY Margaret HOLLAND Henry Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/96/60


The marriage is at the Cathedral so image is on Ancestry !
Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral)

Name: Margaret Appleby spinster age 20 - Sandford St. Salford.
Birth Year: abt 1833
Marriage Date: 19 May 1853
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: William Appleby - Labourer
Spouse's name: Henry Holland Batchelor aged 21. - Calenderer of Adelphi St. Salford.
Spouse's Father's Name: Richard Holland - Calenderer.
Archive Roll: 721
Witnesses: Robert Barnwell? and Eliza Prestwich
Witnesses and bride + groom all 'marked '

The Adelphi St address is very useful as this is linked to a William Holland in some newspaper articles and Court Records etc.

Must get dressed now and 'DO' things !!!

Will get back later..................

Feel free to add things while I am away !! ;-)

Dea x

Re Dea's mention of fighting in Salford in 1875, with address of Sayer or Sager Street -

That will be Sagar Street, on the western fringes of Salford - off the A56 Bury New Road.
However, I can't find it in either the 1871 or 1881 censuses.

Thanks AG - I can find it now in 1871 but there are 2 families there and neither of them is who we want :-( (James Alerdice & family + the Grahams and the other household is John Coleman & family ).

I can't find it again in 1881 though .

Dea x

Here we are - the 1881 but this doesn't help either............... :-(

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
4, Sagar Street, Salford, Lancashire, England

Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Edward Gargan Head Married Male 46 1835 Labourer -
Catherine Gargan Wife Married Female 41 1840 Wife -
Francis Gargan Son Single Male 20 1861 Labourer Louth, Ireland
+ lots of his family and a boarder............

It seems the Hollands didn't stay at this address for long either....

Dea x

(throws in!)

Chris :)

Baptism: 14 Sep 1856 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Gulielmus Holland - filius Henrici Holland & Margaritae (formerly Appleby)
Born: 1853
Godparents: Maria Holland
Baptised by: Dionysio Byrne, Miss. Apost.
Register: Baptisms 1856 - 1858, Page 76
Source: Original Parish Register


(these threw me, with Ogden Street, and Occ. of Henry!)

County Lancashire
Place Salford
Church name St Philip
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 1080
Baptism date 20 Apr 1862
Person forename William Henry
Person sex M
Father forename Henry
Mother forename Margaret
Father surname HOLLAND
Person abode 4 Ogden St
Father occupation Calenderer
Notes Brother of Jane

(same for her)
Jane HOLLAND Baptism 20 Apr 1862 Lancashire Salford : St Philip

https://www.freereg.org.uk/

(just checked 1871, it was number 4)


1861 (Find My Past)
William Brief Head Married Male 39 1822 Labourer Salford, Lancashire, England
Harriet Buke Wife Married Female 36 1825 - Salford, Lancashire, England
Emma Buke Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1844 ...Winder Salford, Lancashire, England
Eliza Buke Daughter - Female 11 1850 Jack Tenter Salford, Lancashire, England
Margaret Bollard Daughter Unmarried Female 28 1833 Linen Weaver Bury, Lancashire, England (Holland)
William Bollard Son - Male 7 1854 - Salford, Lancashire, England (Holland on image)
Jane Doland Daughter - Female 4 1857 - Salford, Lancashire, England (Holand)
4, Ogden Street, Salford, Lancashire

(surnames all not what they seem on above!, Eliza and Emma Vipond)

Birth
VIPOND, ELIZA -
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 20 Page 929


Marriages Mar 1855 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
BRIERLEY William Salford 8d 41
VIPOND Harriet Salford 8d 41


Margaret Holland is a 'Boarder' 1891, Silk Street, Salford, with James Wilson, as 1871, below was their Daughter, Margaret not with them 1881, Silk Street)


WILSON, HARRIET VIPOND
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 39

OOOOerrr - I have seen the family in Ogden St somewhere Chris - Ahh yes - that's the 1871 I had above.

Many thanks Chris,

Dea x