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Rachel Ann Naylor was born 6 November 1860 to parents Joseph Naylor and Anne Cole. I have found two baptisms for a Rachel Ann Naylor with parents Joseph and Anne (Cole not mentioned). One was for 20 November 1860 and one was for 9 December 1860. How can I find the correct one … or can I?

Having looked at the images I would say that they are both for the same person. - Father Joseph a Glass cutter.

The first one was carried out by a curate who is different from the person who has done all of the other baptisms. Maybe he was not 'qualified' to do this and the child was re baptised ? I have seen this kind of thing happen before.

There was also a 'crossing-out' on the entry where he had written father's occupation in the wrong column - these alterations are usually initialled and this wasn't - perhaps that was a reason?

Dea x

Only one record comes up on Findmypast and that is the December baptism.

Kath. x

Both are on Ancestry and there are 2 different images of them.

Dea x

Do you have her birth cert Yvonne, if so, does it give an address for her birth please?

Dea x

This looks like the family in the 1861 census:-

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
5, Welsh Row, Sutton, Prescot, Lancashire, England

Rachael Ann Naylor's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

Joseph Naylor Head Married Male 46 1815 Glass Cutter Sutton, Lancashire, England
Ann Naylor Wife Married Female 40 1821 House Keeper Sutton, Lancashire, England
John Naylor Son Unmarried Male 19 1842 Smoothing Hadster Sutton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Naylor Son Unmarried Male 17 1844 Labourer At Glass Works Sutton, Lancashire, England
Piers Naylor Son Unmarried Male 13 1848 Scholar Sutton, Lancashire, England
Jane Naylor Daughter Unmarried Female 11 1850 Scholar Sutton, Lancashire, England
Joseph Naylor Son Unmarried Male 9 1852 Scholar Sutton, Lancashire, England
James Naylor Son Unmarried Male 7 1854 Scholar Sutton, Lancashire, England
Margaret Naylor Daughter Unmarried Female 5 1856 Scholar Sutton, Lancashire, England
Alfred Naylor Son Unmarried Male 2 1859 - Sutton, Lancashire, England
Rachael Ann Naylor Daughter Unmarried Female 0 1861 - Sutton, Lancashire, England

Kath. x

The 1871 census:-

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Guagers Row, Sutton, Prescot, Lancashire, England

Rachel Naylor's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

Ann Naylor Head - Female 50 1821 - Lancashire, England
Piers Naylor Son - Male 23 1848 - Lancashire, England
Joseph Naylor Son - Male 19 1852 - Lancashire, England
James Naylor Son - Male 16 1855 - Lancashire, England
Margaret Naylor Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Lancashire, England
Alfred Naylor Son - Male 12 1859 - Lancashire, England
Rachel Naylor Daughter - Female 10 1861 - Lancashire, England

Kath. x

Possible marriage for Rachel:-

First name(s) RACHEL
Last name NAYLOR
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1879
Registration month -
MarriageFinder ™

RACHEL NAYLOR married one of these people

Thomas Harris, John Pountney

District Prescot
District number -
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8B
Volume as transcribed 8B
Page number 889
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005

Or more likely this one in a different area:-

First name(s) RACHEL ANN
Last name NAYLOR
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1880
Registration month -
MarriageFinder ™

RACHEL ANN NAYLOR married one of these people

Joseph Freeman, Daniel Brown

District Sculcoates
District number -
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9D
Volume as transcribed 9D
Page number 213
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Kath. x

Baptism: 31 Aug 1843 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Thomas Cole Naylor - Son of Joseph Naylor & Anne
Abode: Sutton
Occupation: Plate Glass Maker
Baptised by: J. B. Meredith
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [86], Entry 682
Source: LDS Film 1469036


Baptism: 21 Dec 1845 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Alice Naylor - Daughter of Joseph Naylor & Ann
Abode: Eccleston
Occupation: Glass Polisher
Baptised by: Wm. Pollock
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [159], Entry 1268
Source: LDS Film 1469036

Baptism: 19 Mar 1848 St Mary, St Helens, Lancashire, England
Peers Naylor - Son of Joseph Naylor & Ann
Abode: Sutton
Occupation: Glassmaker
Baptised by: George Bagot
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 1801
Source: LDS Film 1469036

Baptism: 23 Dec 1849 St Mary, St Helens, Lancashire, England
Jane Naylor - Daughter of Joseph Naylor & Ann
Abode: Sutton
Occupation: Plate Glass Polisher
Baptised by: George Bagot
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 2229
Source: LDS Film 1469036

Marriage: 25 Nov 1840 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Joseph Neylor - 20, Glass Polisher, Bachelor, Sutton
Anne Cole - (X), 20, Spinster
Groom's Father: John Naylor
Bride's Father: Thomas Cole
Witness: Henry Parr; Jane McGarty, (X)
Married by: J. H. Macguire
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [55], Entry 109
Source: LDS Film 1469036

The marriage of Rachel and John Poultney in 1879 says her father is Joseph Naylor a Labourer.

His father John Poultney is also a Labourer.

Married May 11th 1879 she made her mark (X) and he signed.
Witnesses George Sawless and Sarah Eliza Sawless.His address just St Helens and hers Sutton.

Name: Joseph Naylor
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Registration Year: 1866
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Prescot
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 557

baptism ??
Baptism: 27 Feb 1820 St Helen (formerly St Mary), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Joseph Nailor - Son of John Nailor & Margaret
Abode: Sutton
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: T. Pigot
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1824 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [182], Entry 1454
Source: LDS Film 1469036

if the above cenus are the correct family

Marriage: 8 Jun 1881 Christ Church, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Alfred Naylor - 23, Labourer, Bachelor, Eccleston
Jane Naylor - 28, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: Joseph Naylor, Glass Polisher ----------
Bride's Father: Hugh Naylor, Glass Polisher
Witness: Peers Naylor; Alice Naylor
Married by Banns by: B. S. Clarke
Register: Marriages 1879 - 1887, Page 62, Entry 124
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Marriage: 29 May 1869 Christ Church, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
John Glover - 20, Labourer, Bachelor, Eccleston
Jane Naylor - 19, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: Michael Glover, Labourer
Bride's Father: Joseph Naylor, Labourer ------------
Witness: John Naylor; Margaret Forber, (X)
Married by Banns by: R. P. Crockett
Register: Marriages 1868 - 1873, Page 43, Entry 86
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Marriage: 10 Apr 1870 Christ Church, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Thomas Cole Naylor - Full age, Glassmaker, Bachelor, Eccleston
Ann Anders - Full age, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: Joseph Naylor, Glassmaker -----------
Bride's Father: Peter Anders, Collier
Witness: Lawrence Chorley; Sarah Chorley
Married by Banns by: R. P. Crockett
Register: Marriages 1868 - 1873, Page 81, Entry 162
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Marriage: 1 May 1876 Christ Church, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
James Naylor - 21, Glass Maker, Bachelor, Eccleston
Elizabeth Corden - 21, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: Joseph Naylor, Labourer -------
Bride's Father: Charles Corden, Labourer
Witness: James Webster; Elizabeth Dalton
Married by Banns by: R. P. Crockett
Register: Marriages 1873 - 1879, Page 128, Entry 256
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Thanks so much everybody. The family in the census is the correct one and I do have those marriage references.

I do have the birth certificate for Rachel Ann and the only address given is Ravenhead, Sutton. Ravenhead is a small part of St. Helens. Her father's occupation is shown as glass polisher.

I looked to see if there was maybe another Rachel Ann Naylor born around the same time that would maybe explain the two baptisms, but the only one that comes up is mine, so maybe your explanation is correct Dea. Thanks.

Thanks also to Maddie for those baptisms. I have all of them except for Margaret Alice, who I didn't know existed because she doesn't show on any of the censuses. If she was born in 1845 then I figured she must've died before the 1851 census and sure enough there is a death in 1847, probably will have to get the birth certificate to make sure she's in my family.

Well, that has made me feel better that the baptisms are for the same person. The only thing that was slightly bothering me was that the first baptism had Ravenhead and the second had Sutton and I know they lived in Sutton so if Ravenhead is on the birth cert that is fine. They are so close together anyway so I wasn't really that concerned.

There is no other birth registered for a Rachel Ann at that time and certainly nothing showing anywhere for another one with parents of the same name with a father with the same occupation in the same area. I am absolutely convinced that for some reason the baptism was performed twice.

Dea x

I don't think you need the birth cert for Elizabeth Alice as GRO shows the same mothers maiden name (although the spelling is a bit different).:

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
NAYLOR, ELIZABETH ALICE mmn COAL Order
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 20 Page 853

Just noticed that you say 'Margaret' Alice above but I presume you meant Elizabeth?

Dea x

Thanks Dea, I tend to agree with you.

I also think the marriage to John Pountney is the correct one. I checked the 1881 census and found a Pountney family, John and Rachel, living at 42 Morley Street, Windle, St. Helens, and there is a John and Jane Glover living at 34 Morley Street. Rachel's sister, Jane, married a John Glover.

The witnesses on that marriage cert were actually George and Sarah Eliza LAWLESS (not Sawless) - they are both also living on Morley St:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
9, Morley Street, Windle, Prescot, Lancashire, England

Sarah E Lawless's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Joseph Lawless Head Married Male 30 1851 Lab In Glass Works Warrington, Lancashire, England
Sarah E Lawless Wife Married Female 28 1853 - Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England
Walter Lawless Son Single Male 3 1878 - St Helens, Lancashire, England
John T Lawless Son Single Male 0 1881 - St Helens, Lancashire, England
*Mary Pruntney Sister In Law Single Female 14 1867 Dom Serv Stourport-On-Severn, Worcestershire, England

NB
Note *Mary Prutney (Sister in law) - name is actually Pountney on image.



The other witness:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
3, Morley Street, Windle, Prescot, Lancashire, England

George Lawless's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Lawless Head Married Male 53 1828 Gen Lab Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Jane Lawless Wife Married Female 54 1827 - Warrington, Lancashire, England
George Lawless Son Single Male 20 1861 Steam Hammer Driver Smethwick, Staffordshire, England
Margaret Lawless Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Serv Dom Smethwick, Staffordshire, England


It looks like this family has taken over the whole street !!

Still, it gives us lots of 'connections' to work on ;-) :-)

Dea x

Yes, I've found with these Naylors you have to check out everything, there are so many of them. They used a lot of the same names within the branches so it's really hard to work out who belongs to who. I've spent a lot on certificates so sometimes it's good to get little clues like above. I'd missed the Lawless one so thanks for that.

Any time Yvonne! - just ask on here if you need anything further on them and we will do our best to help.

Dea x