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Have another cup of coffee Dea :-) As I mentioned above, I didn't find a baptism for Margaret, nor could I find her in the 1841 and 1851 census, but she appears in the 1861 and 1871 census. Strange.

I really can't find that baptism for a Margaret in 1815 to a John & Margaret - where have you seen this please?

Dea x

Morning again!

Viewing those archives would've been very useful ... pity. I'll get back on it and see what I can make of it all.

Thanks.

Mornin' ! :-)

The reason I was asking about Australia was because in their National Library you can view online the registers of St Oswalds of Winwick, showing the baptisms, marriages and burials from the early 1700's right through to around 1850 !! - I was hoping this might help us but you have to be resident in Australia to register and have access.

https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Search/Home?lookfor=author:%22Lanchashire%20Parish%20Register%20Society%22&iknowwhatimean=1

Anyway, we will just have to carry on without then..................

I will get back onto it when I have had my cup of tea and woken up a bit.

Dea x

Nope Dea, I'm in Canada.

Now, on my original list I had:

John born 1813
Margaret born 1815
Henry born 1817
Joseph born 1820
James born 1823
Peers born 1825

You added:

Martha born 1815
Benjamin born 1817

Dealing with my list first. I have Margaret born 1815. I couldn't find her in the 1841 or 1851 census, but in 1861 she's with mother, Margaret, and brother Peers, in Ravenhead, St. Helens. In 1871 she's with Peers and a niece, Alice. She didn't marry. So, if she was born in 1815 (and I can't find a baptism) that brings up the question of Martha also born in 1815??? There is a baptism for Martha which I found on Ancestry (Lancs Births & Baptisms) for 25 June 1815. The deaths for Martha Naylor born 1804, but died 1810, age 6 and Mary Ann born 1809 but died 1811 age 3 ... these birth dates would tie in with the marriage of John Naylor and Margaret Barnes in 1802 in Winwick that you posted.

I also have Henry born 1817, the same year as Benjamin?? I don't seem to have a note of where I found Henry and doing a quick check now I can't find a baptism for him so that brings Benjamin back into the equation. There is a death for a Benjamin, buried 1852 in Eccleston (dob 1818) but I don't suppose the death certificate would help if he was married and that marriage you posted above looks good, since Peers was a witness.

I don't know where this leaves us though … in a fog I think!

If it is morning with you now, can I take it you are not in Australia??

Dea x

Good morning ... wish I was always sleeping??

I have to go out right after breakfast so will look at this on my return ... still not convinced.

Thanks.

I think she's gorn to bed again Erika - that woman is ALWAYS sleeping !!!!! ;-) :-)

Dea x

Your thread about JOHN. Naylor

Re your thoughts on 2 possible 'John + Margaret's' based on a Benjamin + a Martha.

I have been working on this also and I believe that Martha + Benjamin are also the children of 'our' John + Margaret. Based on:

It seems to me that John and Margaret started off in Winwick as this couple:

Marriage: 3 Mar 1802 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
John Naylor - this Parish
Margaret Barnes - this Parish
Witness: Wm Rowland; Thos. Walker
Married by Licence by: John Prince Curate
Notes: [the clerk entered the bride's name as Barns]
Register: Marriages 1766 - 1812, Page 721, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 1885708


Burial of 2 of their children which suggests they have now moved to Sutton ?

Burial: 8 Apr 1810 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Martha Naylor - daughter of John Naylor & Margaret
Age: 6
Abode: Sutton (Prescot Parish)
Register: Burials 1807 - 1812, Page 23, Entry 6
Source: LDS Film 1655876

Burial: 1 Aug 1811 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Naylor - daughter of John Naylor & Margaret
Age: 3
Abode: Sutton
Register: Burials 1807 - 1812, Page 34, Entry 14
Source: LDS Film 1655876

It looks like they wanted to return to their family parish to have them buried ??

What details did that baptism for a Martha in 1813 give please as I haven't seen this?

Benjamin does appear as one of their children born later in Sutton:


Baptism: 26 Oct 1817 St Helen (formerly St Mary), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Nailor - Son of John Nailor & Margaret
Abode: Sutton
Occupation: Glass Maker
Baptised by: Geo. Bonner
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1824 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [125], Entry 995
Source: LDS Film 1469036


Marriage: 24 May 1840 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Naylor - (X), Of full age, Labourer, Bachelor, Sutton
Ann Taylor - (X), Of full age, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: John Naylor, Labourer
Bride's Father: Joseph Taylor, Grate maker
Witness: Robert Lawton; Catharine Heyes
Married by Banns by: William Ellam Minister
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 76, Entry 152
Source: LDS Film 1657567


Marriage: 6 Nov 1843 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Naylor - (X), Of full age, Labourer, Widower, Sutton
Mary Cowley - (X), Minor, Spinster, Eccleston
Groom's Father: John Naylor, Glass Manufacturer
Bride's Father: Nehemiah Cowley, Engineer
Witness: James Smith; Peers Naylor
Married by Banns by: John Sheldon, Curate
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 149, Entry 298
Source: LDS Film 1657567

Dea x

Yvonne - are you in Australia because I have found something in the library there that we need to view re the Naylors???

Dea x

Which other one?

Yvonne

Look at your other thread, please

Thanks Dea.

I totally see your reasoning, but there is no mention of Hugh with the other sibs.
It's so confusing, no wonder you need to sleep :-) Only mid-afternoon here!

I'll keep plodding while you're zzzzing.

Just off to bed - it's been a 'l . o . n . g..' day !!!

Jane Naylor, Peer's niece was the daughter of Hugh (and Jane), so that would mean that Hugh was probably a brother to Peers who was a son of John + Margaret.

'Your' Joseph was a brother to Peers so that would also make him a brother to Hugh so the John who died, being a son of Hugh would have been 'your' Joseph's nephew!! Phewww !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's too late for this - I will take a proper look in the morning.

Nite, nite for now.

Dea x

I looked at the 1881 census showing 29 Lugsmore Villas, with:
Peers Naylor - head
Mary Makin - visitor
Jane Naylor - niece
Margaret - sister-in-law

Peers Naylor never married. His sibling, James, b 1824, married Margaret Norris, so could the Margaret above be her.
I then looked at Jane. As a niece she would have to be the daughter of one of Peers' siblings. I did find a possibility - parents Benjamin and Mary.
In the list of baptisms for John and Margaret there is a Benjamin listed, for 1817.
I am wondering if there were maybe two John and Margarets … why … because in the list of baptisms there is a Martha b. 1813 and Benjamin b. 1817. In my list of children born to John and Mary I have John in 1813, Margaret 1815, Henry 1817, Joseph b. 1819, James 1824 and Peers 1825.

There's a tree on Ancestry which shows a Benjamin, son of John, married to Mary Cowley, then later to Ann Taylor. I checked and this was the only Benjamin I could find in St. Helens.

Thoughts??

My head's spinning on this but thoughts so far.

Unless there's a big coincidence, I'm now convinced that the John who had the accident is the son of Hugh Naylor. The inscription on the gravestone says:

John Naylor who died June 17 1875 age 32 years
Hugh Naylor, father of the above of Thatto Heath, who died 17 Nov, 1877, age 68 years
Also James Naylor who died Aug 11, 1889, age 49 years
Also Jane, wife of above who died 26 Nov 1913, age 70 years
Also John, son of above James Naylor died 15 Jun 1939, age 63 years

This grave is next to the grave of Margaret Naylor (daughter of Joseph & Anne) who married Thomas Roberts.

Good morning. Wow, what a lot of info ... I'll have to go through it all and get back to you. The Naylor family has proved to be very complicated, there are so many of them and many in the different branches with same names and birthdates. Takes a lot of sifting!

Thanks so much for sticking with it ... I'll get back when I've digested it, along with my breakfast!!

P.S. - Link to another thread which didn't relate when it was started but is now starting to cause a duplication of research. Please read it for reference

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1374343?jump=1374343

Dea x

Re 'a' Hugh:

Marriage: 27 Sep 1836 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Hugh Naylor - Husbandman, Bachelor, Of this Parish
Jane Martindale - (X), Spinster, Of this Parish
Witness: John Woodward; Mary Barnes, (X)
Married by Banns by: William Ellam Minister
Register: Marriages 1831 - 1837, Page 96, Entry 287
Source: LDS Film 1657567



1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Thatto Heath, Prescot, Lancashire, England

James Naylor's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Hugh Naylor Male 30 1811 Lancashire, England
Jane Naylor Female 30 1811 Lancashire, England
James Naylor Male 0 1841 Lancashire, England

NAYLOR, JAMES MARTINDALE Order
GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 20 Page 656




THIS CONNECTS THEM ALL but at a much later date !!!!

Marriage: 8 Jun 1881 Christ Church, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Alfred Naylor - 23, Labourer, Bachelor, Eccleston ..............................son of 'your' Joseph
Jane Naylor - 28, Spinster, Eccleston ...................... daughter of Hugh.
Groom's Father: **Joseph Naylor, Glass Polisher
Bride's Father: **Hugh Naylor, Glass Polisher
Witness: **Peers Naylor; Alice Naylor
Married by Banns by: B. S. Clarke
Register: Marriages 1879 - 1887, Page 62, Entry 124
Source: LDS Film 1657567



NAYLOR, JANE MARTINDALE Order
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 431


Alfred just before he married:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
42, Guagers Row, Sutton, Prescot, Lancashire, England

Alfred Naylor's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ann Naylor Head Widow Female 60 1821 Charwoman Sutton, Lancashire, England
Alfred Naylor Son Single Male 22 1859 Glass Polisher Sutton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Naylor Son Widower Male 37 1844 Glass Polisher Sutton, Lancashire, England
John Naylor Grand Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Lancashire, England
Rachel Naylor Grand Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Lancashire, England


Jane just before she married:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
29, Lugsmore Villas, Eccleston, Prescot, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Piers Naylor Head Single Male 56 1825 Retired Commercial Traveller Sutton, Lancashire, England
Mary Makin Visitor Single Female 55 1826 Schoolmistress Lancashire, England
Jane Naylor Niece Single Female 29 1852 Serv Sutton, Lancashire, England
Margaret Naylor Sister In Law Widow Female 58 1823 Nurse Prescot, Lancashire, England




1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Peel Street, Spotland, Rochdale, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Alfred Naylor Head Married Male 32 1859 Police Constable Thatto Heath, Lancashire, England
Jane Naylor Wife Married Female 38 1853 - -
Joseph Naylor Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar -
Hugh Naylor Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar -
Bertha Naylor Daughter - Female 3 1888 Scholar


MUST go now - will be back later - thought you might want to look into it while I am away preparing for 'fireworks party' with the grandchildren.

Dea x