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I need some help please, I have a Daisy Summers born 1902 Gravesend and a Henry Charles Summers born 1906 Gravesend living with grandparents in Gravesend. I have looked both of them up on the GRO records but both have come up with no mothers name . I have seen the marriage certificate for 1922 on a family tree on Ancestry for Daisy Summers it came up with her father being Edward Summers deceased. Appreciate any ideas

SUMMERS, DAISY -
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in GRAVESEND Volume 02A Page 607


SUMMERS, HENRY CHARLES -
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in GRAVESEND Volume 02A Page 682


No mothers maiden for either birth. Suggests both born out of wedlock. The fathers name on marriage cert may have been invented to hide the fact and save face

Andy

For ref

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
37 Harmer Street Gravesend, Gravesend, Kent, England

Edward George Summers Head Married Male Market Gardener 48 1863 Krinsbury Kent
Azlice Summers Wife Married Female Printerer And Greenssocer 49 1862 Stood Kent
Rossette Summers Daughter Single Female Assistant To Above 25 1886 Stood Kent
Edward George Summers Son Single Male Carman 22 1889 Stood Kent
Charles Arthur Summers Son Single Male Carman 18 1893 Stood Kent
Emily May Summers Daughter Single Female Assistant To Above 15 1896 Stood Kent
Thomas Henry Summers Son Single Male Carman 14 1897 Stood Kent
George Henry Summers Son Single Male Assistant To Above 13 1898 Stood Kent
Sillez Pretorea Summers Daughter Single Female School 10 1901 Stood Kent
Daisy Summers Granddaughter Single Female - 9 1902 Gravesend Kent
Henry Charles Summers Grandson Single Male - 5 1906 Gravesend Kent

As there's no other surname given on the birth reg It's likely that Daisy was the child of one of the Summer's daughters, and used grandfather's name on her marriage?

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
37, Harmer Street, Milton, Gravesend, Kent, England

Edward Summers Head Married Male 39 1862 Horse Driver Strood, Kent, England
Alice Summers Wife Married Female 41 1860 Shopkeeper Greengrocer Strood, Kent, England
Alice Summers Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Shopkeeper Assistant Strood, Kent, England

Mary Summers Daughter Single Female 17 1884 Shopkeeper Assistant Strood, Kent, England
Rosette Summers Daughter Single Female 15 1886 Shopkeeper Assistant Strood, Kent, England
Edward Summers Son - Male 12 1889 - Strood, Kent, England
Charles Summers Son - Male 7 1894 - Strood, Kent, England
Emily Summers Daughter - Female 5 1896 - Strood, Kent, England
Thomas Summers Son - Male 4 1897 - Strood, Kent, England
George Summers Son - Male 4 1897 - Strood, Kent, England
Lily Summers Daughter - Female 0 1901 - Gravesend, Kent, England
George Perkins Servant Single Male 18 1883 Shopkeeper Assistant Strood, Kent, England

Rosetta married 1911

Marriages Dec 1911 (>99%)
Canton Eric F Gravesend 2a 1296
Rand Joseph C Gravesend 2a 1296
Summers Rosetta Gravesend 2a 1296
Williams Evelyn E Gravesend 2a 1296

Births Sep 1913 (>99%)
RAND Doris L Summers Gravesend 2a 1455
Births Mar 1918 (>99%)
Rand Joseph C Summers Gravesend 2a 969
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
Rand Gladys D Summers Gravesend 2a 1944

First name(s) ROSETTA
Last name RAND
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1886
Age 40
Death quarter 2
Death year 1926
District Gravesend
County Kent
Volume 2A
Page 770
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

There are older sisters also

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Frindsbury Road, Frindsbury, Strood, Kent, England

Edward Summers Head Married Male 28 1863 ? Merchant Kent, England
Alice A Summers Wife Married Female 30 1861 - Strood, Kent,
Alice M Summers Daughter - Female 9 1882 - Strood, Kent,
Mary Q Summers Daughter - Female 7 1884 - Kent, England
Rose Summers Daughter - Female 5 1886 - Kent, England
Edward G Summers Son - Male 2 1889 - Kent, England
Charles Carnelley Servant Single Male 21 1870 Horse Driver Kent, England T
Arthur Whiffin Servant Single Male 17 1874 Horse Driver Kent, England

I had found the Summers in Harmer Street Gravesend and thought they could be a daughters children but didn't give a thought Daisy could have used her Grandfathers name. Now there is another problem because Daisy Summers married a Frederick Thomas Osborne and they had a daughter Margaret born approx 1916 according to age on her marriage certificate but I can find no birth of Margaret Osborne with mother of Summers or even find a birth of Margaret Osborne, yet they are a Gravesend family

Marriages Sep 1922 (>99%)

OSBORNE Frederick T Summers Gravesend 2a 1783
SUMMERS Daisy Osborne Gravesend 2a 1783

1916 sounds a bit early for Margaret's birth as Daisy would only be 14? and there s mo Summers birth that I can see. Who did Margaret marry please?

Margaret Osborne married Charles Henry Butcher 30th November 1935' Gravesend I sent for their marriage certificate and actually received it in the post today. States her father as being Frederick Osborne and Margaret was 19yrs old

??

Births Sep 1922
Summers Queenie M Summers Gravesend 2a 1194


EDIT No

Deaths Sep 1922 (>99%)
Summers Queenie M 0 Gravesend 2a 608


Andy

I would look at whether Frederick might have been married before? or it's possible that Margaret was not honest about her age...however she stuck to it for the 1939 register. However there is still no birth showing to tie in.

Butcher Household (4 People)
39 Ingoldsby Road , Gravesend M.B., Kent, England

Charles H Butcher 09 Feb 1914 Male Lorry Driver & Mechanic Widowed 126 1
Margaret Butcher 11 Jan 1916 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 126 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

Of those two closed records in 1939 one is probably the son born 1936, mmn Osborne.

Though the death gives same day and month but birth year as 1917

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
First name(s) MARGARET
Last name BUTCHER
Gender Female
Birth day 11
Birth month 1
Birth year 1917
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1999
District Gravesend
District number 5621B
Register number T29B
Entry number 133
Date of registration mm/yy 1099
County Kent
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

I note that the births to Osborne/Summers all have spelling of surname as Osbourne Just in case you've missed it


First name(s) DAISY
Last name OSBOURNE
Birth year 1933
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's last name Summers
District Strood
County Kent
Country England
Volume 2A
Page 1201


and sadly death

First name(s) DAISY
Last name OSBOURNE
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1934
Age 0
Death quarter 3
Death year 1934
District Gravesend
County Kent
Volume 2A
Page 740
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, England

Also


First name(s) BLANCHE D L
Last name OSBOURNE
Birth year 1923
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's last name Summers
District Gravesend
County Kent
Country England
Volume 2A
Page 1174


First name(s) Blanch Daisy Lilian
Last name Osbourne
Age at death 9m
Birth year 1924
Burial year 1924
Burial date 25 Apr 1924
Residence 2 Brunswick Retreat
Place Gravesend
Burial ground Municipal Cemetery
County Kent
Record set North West Kent Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Osbourne Household (5 People)
22 Couperis Road , Northfleet U.D., Kent, England

Daisy Richardson (Osbourne) 23 Feb 1902 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 172 2
Frederick T Osbourne 13 Sep 1902 Male Labourer Heavy Worker Married 172 1
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Albert E Osbourne 23 May 1932 Male At School Single 172 3

Well the address is correct for the Butchers in Ingolsby Road because that's where they did live, but I wonder where the widower came in. 1935 On the married cert. it states Frederick is 21 yrs and a Batchelor, a Lorry Driver, his father being George Cracknell Butcher and the address was 81 Darnley Road Gravesend for them both. Queen M Summers , looks like she died at birth in 1922, unsure of connection to Daisy possibly a niece

There is a transcription error for Charles H Butcher, should actually read M for married rather than W for widowed, it's a little smudged on the image.

Ny. This is getting so confusing, where has the Richardson come in for Daisy Osbourne , by the way it is Coopers Road. I have just done the tree for Brian Lear the husband of Margaret Butcher who's mother is Margaret Osborne and ironically his Grandmother was a Daisy Richards who called herself Daisy Richardson but she was born in 1882 had 4 children by a Frederick W Lear but they never married and lived apart. It was a nightmare trying to find his Daisy and looks like the same problem with this Daisy Summers who has been listed as Daisy Richardson (Osbourne). Regarding Blanche Osbourne b1923 and Daisy Osbourne b1933 mother Summers I just don't know where come in.