Find Ancestors

I'm pretty certain the first Mary born 1844 must have died (as did the first William born 1848).

The newspaper articles place John as the eldest son.

Name Mary Farrier
Gender Female
Christening Date 24 Nov 1744
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 13 Nov 1744
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name John Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 09 May 1746
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 04 May 1746
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name William Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 15 Apr 1748
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 12 Apr 1748
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name William Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Mar 1751
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 23 Feb 1751
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name James Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 27 Sep 1753
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 22 Sep 1753
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochron

Name Alexander Ferrier
Gender Male
Birth Date 22 Feb 1762
Birthplace KILBARCHAN,RENFREW,SCOTLAND
Father's Name John Ferrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name Mary Ferrior
Gender Female
Christening Date 19 Jul 1764
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 10 Jul 1764
Father's Name John Ferrior
Mother's Name Mary Cochron

To Clarify:
Ferrier/Cochran Banns were read in both Kilbarchan & Paisley Renfrewshire
Banns would usually be read on 3 consecutive Sundays starting with date on each
.
Either one of the OPR entries should confirm who lived in Paisley and who was in Kilbarchan
Very occasionally,is the OPR is annotated with actual date and place of marriage but it was tradition to marry in the Bride's parish.
OPR Marriage Banns almost never list parents


COCHRAN
MARY
JOHN FARRIER/FR1415 (FR1415)
31/12/1743
559/
40 131
**Abbey ( This is Paisley)

FERRIER
JOHN
MAREY COCHRAN/FR457 (FR457)
21/01/1744
568/
20 45
***Kilbarchan

Wow all the above is making my head spin, the chance Mary may have been of colour. I guess it would be an explanation as why she is so hard to find. I have a photo of her son George A F and he looks white. The two sons who came out to Australia both did quiet well for themselves. George owned a great deal of land, and even donated land to build a school in the town of Denman N.S.W.. He also donated money towards the building of the Church. He was also appointed to the Bar As a Magistrate. Brother Robert we think became a horse breeder. The Kibble descendants in Australia number into the hundreds.

To Chris Ho, you mentioned I may have to come over to Scotland to find out more, one of my cousins is going to Paris for work and has organised to have three days in a London and two in a Glasgow. Can you recommend some places she should try to get further info. As her time there unfortunately will be limited.
She is going to see James Kibble burial place to see if a Mary is anywhere there.

Glasgow Lass, yes you are correct about the Hervey Kibble marriages. I do have the Wills of james Kibble 1777-1856 also
Will of Thomas Kibble (father)
And of James Kibble son who died 1843 and married Sarah Hervey. I have quiet a lot of Info. On Kibble line, it is just the elusive Ferrier's we are stumped on.


The house of a Mary & James "Park Place" Paisley Rd Glasgow was torn down years after James death and sent by barge to Rosneath Cove where parts of it were rebuilt for James's Granddaughter Margaret Gordon.
It is still standing today.
The barge then bought back the Kibble Glass Conservatory which now stands in Glasgow Botanical Gardens and was originally at Coulport House Cove the home of son John Kibble
Thank you to all who have posted above.

http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/the-mitchell-library/pages/home.aspx

think that would be Mitchell Library, for research, GL will be the one with the knowledge for that!)

Chris :)

Oh of course....The Kibble Palace at The Botanic Gardens.!
I would never have made the connection.

Yes, Any of the Scotland's People Centres ( Edinburgh, Glasgow or Ayr) would be the best bet for obtaining documents
However if the records that you are looking for relating to the Ferriers are not found on an online search of the site, it suggests that they didn't exist or that they didn't survive.

I imagine that the term 'woman of colour' just meant she was not British white. My Grandad was half Asian (Eurasion), but his children/ family all look to be white.

copied and pasted :

Mary & James had children-
Thomas 1802 (died prior to 1810)
Margaret 1804
William1806
James 1807-1843 Married Sarah Hervey1839
Elizabeth 1808? Married a James Hervey
Thomas 2 1810-1841 married Margaret Dalziel 1839
Sarah 1 1812
Robert 1814 Married Eliza McCloud 1837 Emmigrated to Australia 1839-1843
Mary 1816 -1895 Married Thomas Gordon 1851
John 1819-1894 Never Married
George Augustus Frederick 1822-1879 Married Mary McGeorge 1843 Emmigrated to Australia with brother Robert
Sarah 2 1824 or 1825


Something is amiss with the above information.
*Elizabeth b 1808? married James Hervie/Hervey
Elizabeth could not be born in 1808 and must have been the youngest daughter

She married James Hervey in 1849
They moved to Manchester where they are found with their Manchester born children until 1881.
( 1808 birth suggests she would be over 40 yrs when she married in 1849)


Elizabeth drops off all census records after 1881
Elizabeths approx year of birth on all census returns is 1821, and shows that she born on the Isle of Bute.

It's coming back to me now....
Husband James Hervey was a similar age to Elizabeth but he was born in Mauritius
Therefore, he could not be the son of James Hervey with either wives, Jean Winning or Isabella Kibble.
He has to be their grandson!

Was Sarah the youngest Daughter? (posted earlier)

Chris :)

12 December 1857 - Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Paisley

Marriage
At St. Andrew's Episcopal Church ,Glasgow, on the 8th instant, by the Rev. Dr. Gordon, Richard Black, Esq., to Sarah, youngest daughter of the late James Kibble, Esq.


(also, just added)

03 May 1851 - Glasgow Sentinel - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Glasgow, on the 29th the ultimo, by the Rev. J.T.S Gordon A.M., Thomas Gordon, Esq., writer, Glasgow to, Mary, eldest daughter of James Kibble, Esq.


01 December 1849 - Glasgow Gazette - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Park Place, Paisley road, on the 27th ult., by the Rev. James F.S. Gordon, James Hervey, Esq., Manchester, to Elizabeth, second daughter of James Kibble, Esq., Glasgow.


Edits (would imagine quite a few items for Australia, on below)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y

Births in order :
No births on SP for Elizabeth, John or George

KIBBLE
THOMAS
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR269 (FR269)
0
27/07/1802
644/2
10 260
Gorbals
--------------

KIBBLE
MARGARET
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR419 (FR419)
0
13/01/1804
646/
20 194
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
WILLIAM
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR423 (FR423)
0
17/02/1806
646/
20 202
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
JAMES
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR427 (FR427)
0
19/12/1807
646/
20 210
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
THOMAS
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR431 (FR431)
0
16/05/1810
----------------------

KIBBLE
SARAH
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR433 (FR433)
0
08/01/1812
646/
20 223
Govan
----------------------

KIBBLE
ROBERT
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR437 (FR437)
0
12/08/1814
646/
20 230
Govan
--------------------

KIBBLE
MARY
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR440 (FR440)
0
13/06/1816
646/
20 236
Govan
---------------------------

Daughters Sarah and Mary were both older than Elizabeth yet Elizabeth is described as 2nd daughter?

(ooerr!, GL, that ain't good, lol)

Chris :)

25 April 1895 - Glasgow Herald - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Death
At Park Place, Cove, Dunbartonshire, on the 22nd inst., in her 79th year, Mary Kibble, widow of Thomas Gordon, writer, Glasgow. Friends, please accept of this (the only) intimation.

I thought the first Sarah died- then a second Sarah was born after Elizabeth- making Elizabeth the second daughter??

Listed on the 1841 page 1:

KEBBLE James M 60 Merchant Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Mary F 20 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Elisabeth F 20 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Sarah F 15 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Margt F 25 Independent Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Mary F 1 Outside Census County (1841)

I think I've lost the plot?!

Elizabeth's death:
Name: Elizabeth Kibble Hervey
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Registration Year: 1890
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Macclesfield
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a Page: 109

(grief, confusion reigns, think Pauline and Nicola S need a Kibble 'Meet', lol)

Chris :)

(has Pauline obtained that list with BMD info. direct from S/People, or is it taken from elsewhere?)

Really need to look at the original 1841 return.
Mary ,and Elizabeth's ages have l been rounded down to the nearest 5yrs

Mary would be age 25
Elizabeth would be age 21 (ish)
Daughter Margaret would be age 37 in 1841

1yr old Mary Kibble appears to be the daughter of son Thomas with Margaret Dalziel

I guess perhaps Sarah 1st did die and was replace with another?


Yes Austin, that 1890 death does belong to Elizabeth Kibble and we know for sure that her father was this James Kibble.
Address on 1849 marriage announcement matches.

So did daughter Margaret die too? Otherwise Elizabeth would be 3rd daughter?

Your guess is as good as mine. LOL

(below must have been wife of Son Thomas)

Chris :)

29 October 1850 - Greenock Advertiser - Greenock, Renfrewshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Melbourne Place, Kingston, Glasgow, on the 23rd instant, by the Rev. Dr. Robson, Donald Fisher, Esq.. writer, to Margaret Kibble, third daughter of the late Mr John Dalzeil, merchant.


http://myfamilytree.scot/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I171337&ged=tree3

(above from google search)


Scotland Births and Baptisms 1564-1950 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Mary Ferrier
Last name Kibble
Gender Female
Birth year 1840
Birth place Govan,Lanark,Scotland
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Kibble
Mother's first name(s) Margaret
Mother's last name Dalziel
Place Govan
County Lanarkshire

Sarah Kibble and husband Richard Black emigrated to the US and lived in Wisconsin.

Her year of birth is consistent with 1824 and concurs with 1841 census.
She must have replaced Sarah b 1812

1860: Dane Wisconsin
Richard Black 44 b Scotland
Sarah Black 35
George Black 1
Mary W Donell 23

1870: Dane, Wisconsin
Richard Black 53 b Scotland
Sarah Black 46 b Scotland
George Black 12
Mary Black 10 b Wisconsin ( Mary Ferrier Black)
Joanna Regan 26

1880: Dane, Wisonsin
Richard Black 63
Sarah Black 55
George Black 21
Mary F. Black 19



1851 marriage announcement for Mary Kibble to Thomas Gordon states that Mary was the eldest daughter.

We have Mary b 1816, followed by Elizabeth bc 1821 and then Sarah bc 1824

Margaret must have died
She cannot be the Ind person on the 1841 census


Based on all the information, it would seem that James Kibble and Mary Ferrier probably did adhere to the traditional naming pattern.
1st son and 2nd daughter do indeed reflect James's parents:
Thomas Kibble and Sarah Martin

2nd son and 1st daughter are William and Margaret
Traditionally these are the names of the mother's parents
William Ferrier and Margaret ...

Just to clarify children of James & Mary. I did make a mistake with Elizabeth, must be my age, think this is correct

Thomas No 1 12/7/1802 Died as child

Margaret. 13/1/1804. Died no children

William. 17/2/1806 Die no children

James William 19/12/1807 Died 8/11/1843 Married Sarah Hervey 1839
James Died at 36 Abbotsford Place Laurieston Glasgow
Sarah later went to live Isle of Bute

Thomas No 2 16/5/1810 Died 2/5/1839 Married Margaret Dalziel 11/6/1839
Margaret later married Donald Fisher (writer)
Thomas died Cumberland Place Eglington St Laurieston Glasgow

Sarah No 1. 8/1/1812 Died no children

Robert. 12/8/1814 Married Eliza Thomson McCloud in Grenock. They has son
James in 8/7/1838 Then Emigrated to Australia.

Mary. 13/6/1816 Died 22/4/1895 Married Thomas Gordon (writer)

John 1819 Died 1894 (had the Kibble Conservatory Built) Never Married

Elizabeth. 1820/21. Married James Hervey

George Augustus Frederick 1822 Died 18/12/1879. Married Mary McGeorge in
Australia in 1843 Mary was from Dumfriesshire. She died 16/12/1865
After having 7 children. George then Married Elizabeth Mc Dermott in
1866 they then had another 7 children.

Sarah No 2 1824/25 Married Richard Black 1857 Brother John was witness

We know by James Kibble's Will that only 3 sons survived him - John, Robert & George
3 Daughters who survived him were - Sarah No 2, Mary Kibble Gordon, Elizabeth Kibble Hervey.
Children of Sons Thomas & James were also mentioned

Thomas No 1 Died as a child
Sarah No 1 Died as a child
William & Margaret both Died ,but do not know when
Thomas No 2 & James William both Died leaving children

Interesting the Wills of both
Thomas No 2 & James William were written by Thomas Gordon (Husband of Sister Mary)

You may also find interesting Thomas Kibble Snr (Father of James Kibble 1777-1856)
Was the Cousin of another James Kibble of Whittford & Greenlaw.
Thomas who was also a writer did the Will for his cousin James
James Kibble of Greenlaw Also had a Daughter named Elizabeth, she never married and on her death left money to start the Kibble School for wayward boys in a Glasgow

The Margaret mentioned in the 1841 Census was Margaret Dalziel with her Daughter Mary Ferrier Kibble

I have had a number of emails with Nicola S , however we are looking at different people. I am mostly interested in the Ferrier side, or Thomas Kibble & Sarah Martin and beyond

"Thomas No 2 16/5/1810 Died 2/5/1839 Married Margaret Dalziel 11/6/1839"

(something not right there!)

The Deaths you are missing, are they not on S/People?...


(numerous newspaper items, kibble/greenlaw/writer)

Chris :)

12 July 1894 - Morning Post - London, London, England

Death
KIBBLE - On the 8th inst., at The Whins, Alderley Edge, Cheshire, John Kibble of Coulport House, Loch Long, aged 76.

(more items relating, kibble coulport as keywords)

There are no birth or death records on SP prior to Statutory Records of 1855

The pre 1855 birth info which has been found, actually come from the baptismal records

In some parishes, the Mortcloth Records survived which held burial cost which is where many pre 1855 death info is sourced.


There was no standard format to these and the amount of information that they contain will vary from Parish to Parish

OPR records do exist for Govan ( where the children were baptised) from 1817 to 1854 but, I can't find any entries in this Parish for anyone named Kibble ( or variants)

OPR recording ceased in in 1854
By widening the search, and omitting all dates there are less that 30 entries, for Kibble /Kibbel/ Kebble etc, on Mortcloth Records for the entire country

The vast majority are in recorded in Paisley OPR .
It's possible that one or more of these relate to the children in question but, even the info on the indices vary.
Some have names and death dates but, no age is recorded!