Find Ancestors

After reading all the newspaper reports ( I found 53) regarding the 30 years plus Clippens Succession, I now have a good picture of the Ancestors of Mary Ferrier and her Father William. Unfortunately it did not help me regarding Mary Ferrier Kibble herself.
Below is the Paternal tree for Mary
Steven Cochrane Laird of Clippings. 1602

Robert Cochrane 1647

Hugh Cochrane 1643 Married Margaret a Cochrane (cousin)

Hugh Cocchrane Married Mary Brown

Mary Cochrane Married John Ferrier in 1744

William Ferrier 1751. ? He died in Grenada

Mary Ferrier born Grenada
Married James Kibble 1801 Paisley Scotland

George Augustus Kibble 1822- 18/12/1879
Married Mary a McGeorge 1843
Married Elizabeth McDermott 1866

:-\

Great work , it would seem a Thomas Gordon who was the writer of the Will of Thomas and also of the Will of his brother a James William lost a year when he wrote the Will of a Thomas. He had the date and year correct however the year 1839, not one but twice.
It would seem a bed mistake to make in that business.
This was the a Thomas Gordon who would later marry Mary Kibble in 1851.

I do have the Wills of Thomas Kibble, married to Sarah Martin
James Kibble married to Mary Ferrier
Thomas Kibble married to Margaret Dalziel
James Kibble married to Sarah a Hervey
James Kibble married to Ann Sempil (Greenlaw)
I was not sure which one I was chasing, hence doubled up.

I would like to find Will of son John ( Kibble Palace)
And Also of William or Mary Ferrier.

The two brothers who came to Australa, had to return to Scotland to claim their inheritance from Father James Kibble, however they both chose not to.
Their shares were then divided between the other six shares.
These were
John Kibble (son)
Sarah Kibble (daughter)
Mary Kibble Gordon (daughter)
Elizabeth Kibble Hervey (daughter)
Mary Ferrier Kibble (daughter of deceased son Thomas)
James W Kibble & Hervey Kibble (sons of deceased son James)

We don't know when children William, Thomas 1,Margaret, & Sarah 1 died. Only that they pre deceased their Father. I have not been able to locate them on SP

AND.....
Mary Ferrier Kibble was BORN on 19 Apr 1840
2 weeks prior to her father's death.

SP have indexed the OPR entry under her birth date..


Announced Glasgow Herald 24 Apr 1840
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/48535318

Fabulous work GL!

(yes, you're right there GL, been searching every which way on FMP, lol, doh!)

Thankyou.

Chris :)

Chris,
Using FMP some newspapers for Lanarkshire have huge gaps.

This is the direct link to the Glasgow Herald
It's not transcribed in any way but you can go directly to the year and view all the issues of publication around the date that you are looking for .Scan through them.
Births deaths and marriages are usually on the front page of earlier issues.

Nothing was listed for May 1839
I had a gut feeling that Thomas died in 1840 so I looked at May 1840 .

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=18910223&b_mode=2&hl=en

Great stuff GL, well done there.

Chris :)

FOUND IT!

The info contained in his Will is the Red Herring


Glasgow Herald 4 May 1840

Thomas Kibble died on 24 Apr 1840
At 14 Cumberland Place on 24 inst, Mr Thomas Kibble


EDIT:

I misread it.
A bit blurred but I now see that it says 2nd inst which would be... 2 May 1840


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/48534970

There is no matching Death/Burial on SP, in any OPR, relating to death of Thomas in 1839.

Thomas's Will is the only place where his death is recorded.
(7 Dec 1841 is not the death date but refers to the execution of his Will)

Kibble
Thomas
7/12/1841
residing at Cumberland Place, Eglinton Street, Laurieston of Glasgow, spouse of Margaret Dalziel
Inventory;
Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories
SC36/48/28

Have you not got the 1839 Thomas Death, from S/People, to check date?...

(not seeing it in newspapers FMP)

Chris :)

OPR= Old Parochial Registers
Information relating to births, deaths and burials is collected from all over the parish and then recorded in one ledger which was kept by the Clerk of the Parish.

Therefore info contained in any OPR was entered at some point after the event and depended on good book keeping and accurate copying of the collected information.
There are Mistakes/Errors in some Parishes especially Rural ones where the books were updated sporadically

Mortcloth= Is a record for the cost to hire the cloth that covered the burial casket/coffin


Have you actually obtained the baptismal record for Mary Ferrier Kibble daughter of Thomas and Margaret Dalziel.?

Indices can cause confusion if you don't read between the lines
Baptismal records often contain 2 dates.
Date of birth and Date of baptism

Some have the baptism date only and provide no insight as to age ( adults were often baptised too)
SP create the indices using with just one date



The index for Mary Ferrier Kibble shows ONE date only which is 19 Apr 1840

I'm fairly certain that this is simply the date when the baptism was performed
You would need to obtain the actual entry to check exactly what was recorded on the page.
The same principle applies to all of the Kibbles born in Govan as only one date shows
In other words, does the date showing on SP indices refer to the birth or is it the date of Baptism?



On the 1841 census, this child is entered as age1
Taken on 30/31 March 1841.
Therefore the census suggests that the child was born before end March 1840

Glasgow Herald 13 July 1883
Death announcement for Mary Ferrier Kibble who died 11 Jul 1883 at 2 Montgomerie Cres, Kelvinside

KIBBLE
MARY FERRIER
*43*
1883
646/3 438
Partick

Irrespective of birth/baptism date, she must have been 44yrs old when she died !

Glasgow Lass
In Australia I am not familiar with the terms Mortcloth Records and OPR Records
What do these terms mean

You are so right Chris Ho I just realised dates don't add up.
I just went back into SP to check., somewhere there they have made a mistake.
They do have him & Margaret getting married 11/6/1839
They do have daughter Mary being born 19/4/1840
They have Will read 7/12/1841
However the Will itself states he died upon the 2nd day of May 1839,
This death date is mentioned twice in the Will
Something on SP seriously wrong

There are no birth or death records on SP prior to Statutory Records of 1855

The pre 1855 birth info which has been found, actually come from the baptismal records

In some parishes, the Mortcloth Records survived which held burial cost which is where many pre 1855 death info is sourced.


There was no standard format to these and the amount of information that they contain will vary from Parish to Parish

OPR records do exist for Govan ( where the children were baptised) from 1817 to 1854 but, I can't find any entries in this Parish for anyone named Kibble ( or variants)

OPR recording ceased in in 1854
By widening the search, and omitting all dates there are less that 30 entries, for Kibble /Kibbel/ Kebble etc, on Mortcloth Records for the entire country

The vast majority are in recorded in Paisley OPR .
It's possible that one or more of these relate to the children in question but, even the info on the indices vary.
Some have names and death dates but, no age is recorded!

"Thomas No 2 16/5/1810 Died 2/5/1839 Married Margaret Dalziel 11/6/1839"

(something not right there!)

The Deaths you are missing, are they not on S/People?...


(numerous newspaper items, kibble/greenlaw/writer)

Chris :)

12 July 1894 - Morning Post - London, London, England

Death
KIBBLE - On the 8th inst., at The Whins, Alderley Edge, Cheshire, John Kibble of Coulport House, Loch Long, aged 76.

(more items relating, kibble coulport as keywords)

Just to clarify children of James & Mary. I did make a mistake with Elizabeth, must be my age, think this is correct

Thomas No 1 12/7/1802 Died as child

Margaret. 13/1/1804. Died no children

William. 17/2/1806 Die no children

James William 19/12/1807 Died 8/11/1843 Married Sarah Hervey 1839
James Died at 36 Abbotsford Place Laurieston Glasgow
Sarah later went to live Isle of Bute

Thomas No 2 16/5/1810 Died 2/5/1839 Married Margaret Dalziel 11/6/1839
Margaret later married Donald Fisher (writer)
Thomas died Cumberland Place Eglington St Laurieston Glasgow

Sarah No 1. 8/1/1812 Died no children

Robert. 12/8/1814 Married Eliza Thomson McCloud in Grenock. They has son
James in 8/7/1838 Then Emigrated to Australia.

Mary. 13/6/1816 Died 22/4/1895 Married Thomas Gordon (writer)

John 1819 Died 1894 (had the Kibble Conservatory Built) Never Married

Elizabeth. 1820/21. Married James Hervey

George Augustus Frederick 1822 Died 18/12/1879. Married Mary McGeorge in
Australia in 1843 Mary was from Dumfriesshire. She died 16/12/1865
After having 7 children. George then Married Elizabeth Mc Dermott in
1866 they then had another 7 children.

Sarah No 2 1824/25 Married Richard Black 1857 Brother John was witness

We know by James Kibble's Will that only 3 sons survived him - John, Robert & George
3 Daughters who survived him were - Sarah No 2, Mary Kibble Gordon, Elizabeth Kibble Hervey.
Children of Sons Thomas & James were also mentioned

Thomas No 1 Died as a child
Sarah No 1 Died as a child
William & Margaret both Died ,but do not know when
Thomas No 2 & James William both Died leaving children

Interesting the Wills of both
Thomas No 2 & James William were written by Thomas Gordon (Husband of Sister Mary)

You may also find interesting Thomas Kibble Snr (Father of James Kibble 1777-1856)
Was the Cousin of another James Kibble of Whittford & Greenlaw.
Thomas who was also a writer did the Will for his cousin James
James Kibble of Greenlaw Also had a Daughter named Elizabeth, she never married and on her death left money to start the Kibble School for wayward boys in a Glasgow

The Margaret mentioned in the 1841 Census was Margaret Dalziel with her Daughter Mary Ferrier Kibble

I have had a number of emails with Nicola S , however we are looking at different people. I am mostly interested in the Ferrier side, or Thomas Kibble & Sarah Martin and beyond

Sarah Kibble and husband Richard Black emigrated to the US and lived in Wisconsin.

Her year of birth is consistent with 1824 and concurs with 1841 census.
She must have replaced Sarah b 1812

1860: Dane Wisconsin
Richard Black 44 b Scotland
Sarah Black 35
George Black 1
Mary W Donell 23

1870: Dane, Wisconsin
Richard Black 53 b Scotland
Sarah Black 46 b Scotland
George Black 12
Mary Black 10 b Wisconsin ( Mary Ferrier Black)
Joanna Regan 26

1880: Dane, Wisonsin
Richard Black 63
Sarah Black 55
George Black 21
Mary F. Black 19



1851 marriage announcement for Mary Kibble to Thomas Gordon states that Mary was the eldest daughter.

We have Mary b 1816, followed by Elizabeth bc 1821 and then Sarah bc 1824

Margaret must have died
She cannot be the Ind person on the 1841 census


Based on all the information, it would seem that James Kibble and Mary Ferrier probably did adhere to the traditional naming pattern.
1st son and 2nd daughter do indeed reflect James's parents:
Thomas Kibble and Sarah Martin

2nd son and 1st daughter are William and Margaret
Traditionally these are the names of the mother's parents
William Ferrier and Margaret ...

(below must have been wife of Son Thomas)

Chris :)

29 October 1850 - Greenock Advertiser - Greenock, Renfrewshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Melbourne Place, Kingston, Glasgow, on the 23rd instant, by the Rev. Dr. Robson, Donald Fisher, Esq.. writer, to Margaret Kibble, third daughter of the late Mr John Dalzeil, merchant.


http://myfamilytree.scot/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I171337&ged=tree3

(above from google search)


Scotland Births and Baptisms 1564-1950 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Mary Ferrier
Last name Kibble
Gender Female
Birth year 1840
Birth place Govan,Lanark,Scotland
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Kibble
Mother's first name(s) Margaret
Mother's last name Dalziel
Place Govan
County Lanarkshire

Your guess is as good as mine. LOL

So did daughter Margaret die too? Otherwise Elizabeth would be 3rd daughter?