Find Ancestors

Was just thinking the same Chris- and ages of Thomas and Margaret on the marriage certificate too?

Yes there is Chris. The marriage certificate for Thomas James and Margaret Gwendoline Evans 1912 name witnesses as William Evans, David John Evans and Emily (can't read middle name) Lewis.

Mgt G Evans father was Henry Evans (deceased by 1912 and occ. farmer). I found a marriage record for Lucy Lewis and Henry Evans in 1888. There is also a census 1891 that looks likely.
It is interesting that the newspaper link that was suggested earlier, records the bankruptcy of Thomas James, outfitter, trading as Thomas James Lewis. I'm trying not to jump to conclusions this time!

Ages on marriage certificate Thomas 24, bachelor residing at Cross hands ( I can't make out the name of the house - possibly Llanmouth) and Mgt was age 22 and residing abergwili (?)Carmarthen.

I'm throwing this one in for Thomas to look at later (I have to go out shortly)- I did check his father was Thomas (and deceased obviously):

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Penygar Abernant Carmarthen, Abernant, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Elizabeth James Head Widow Female - 66 1845 Cardigan Llanwenog
Sarah James Daughter Single Female Farmer Daughter Work At Home 35 1876 Cardigan Llanwinog
William James Son Single Male Farmer Son Work At Home 34 1877 Llanfihangel Rhoscron Carmarthen
Margaret James Daughter Single Female Farmer Daughter Work At Home 28 1883 Llanfihangel Rhosgcron Carmarthen
Thomas James Son Single Male Farmer Son Work At Home 22 1889 Llanllawddog Carmarthen

EDIT: NOT THIS ONE. I've just seen his service record- cowman, still gives home address as his mother's in 1916.

The census you found for Margaret- does look promising:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Tyrberllan, Abergwilly, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Henry Evans Head Married Male 23 1868 Farmer Abergwili, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Lucy Evans Wife Married Female 21 1870 - Abergwili, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Margaret G Evans Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Abergwili, Carmarthenshire,
Mary Thomas Servant Single Female 22 1869 General Servant Domestic Carmarthenshire,
-------------------------------

Possible death for Lucy??

First name(s) LUCY
Last name EVANS
Gender Female
Birth year 1869
Age 25
Death quarter 4
Death year 1894
District CARMARTHEN
County Carmarthenshire
Volume 11A Page 598
Country Wales

possibly same family 1901-: (or maybe not- Note- Henry a publican!)??

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
(Black Horse), 25, Water Street, Carmarthen St Peter, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Henry Evans Head Married Male 36 1865 Publican White Mill, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Lydia Evans Wife Married Female 43 1858 - Whitland, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Rachel H Jones Step Daughter Single Female 16 1885 - Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales
David W Jones Step Son Single Male 14 1887 - Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales
Mary A Jones Step Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Maggy G Evans Daughter Single Female 11 1890 - Abergwili, Carmarthenshire, Wales
David Evans Son Single Male 9 1892 - Abergwili, Carmarthenshire, Wales
William Vaughan Boarder Single Male 17 1884 Mason Leeds, Yorkshire,

Above does appear to be correct despite Henry listed as publican. This is the baptism of son David- middle name John matching witness on marriage:

First name(s) DAVID JOHN
Last name EVANS
Birth year 1892
Baptism year 1892
Baptism day 5
Baptism month Jun
Baptism place ABERGWILI
Father's first name(s) Henry (Farmer)
Mother's first name(s) Lucy
County Carmarthenshire
Country Wales

Yes! Whitemill is the residence address for Mgt when she got married.
There is a record of a marriage for Henry Evans to Lydia Jones in 1987.

In 1911, second wife, Lydia is a widow- so Henry deceased before Margaret's marriage:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
31 Bridge St Carmarthen, Carmarthen St Peter, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Lydia Evans Head Widow Female Publican 55 1856 Carmarthen Whitland
Rachel Hannah Evans Daughter Single Female - 26 1885 Glamorganshire Aberdare
Mary Ann Evans Daughter Single Female - 22 1889 Carmarthen St Peter
Nicholas Halpin Boarder Single Male Labourer 29 1882 Ireland
Frank Allan Boarder Single Male Labourer 19 1892 Cheshire

Great! Right, really do have to go out now- there's a pint waiting for me ;-)

Will have a look for Thomas later

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),

Evans Henry of the White Mill Inn, White Mill, Abegurli, Carmarthenshire, died 22 Aug 1908 Probate Carmarthen 10 March to John Jones Jeremy and James Lewis solicitor's clerks.

Looks like Margaret G remarried:

Marriage:
Name: Margaret G James
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1937
Registration district: Llanelly
Inferred County: Carmarthenshire
Spouse: Ivor R Rees
Volume Number: 11a Page Number: 2682
-----------------------------------------

1939 register:

Rees Household (3 People) 19 Derwent Street , Llanelly M.B., Carmarthenshire, Wales

Margaret G Rees 03 Aug 1890 Female Unpaid Household Duty Married
Ivor R Rees 15 Jul 1890 Male District Sanitary Inspector Married
Florence M E Rance (James) 11 Apr 1915 Female Shop assistant Single
---------------------------------------------

Possible birth for Florence:

First name(s) FLORENCE M E
Last name JAMES
Birth year 1915
Birth quarter 2
Mother's last name EVANS
District SWANSEA
County Glamorganshire
Country Wales
Volume 11A Page 2384
--------------------------------

Margaret's death:
First name(s) MARGARET GWENDOLINE
Last name REES
Gender Female
Birth 3rd August 1890
Death quarter 2
Death year 1977
District CARMARTHEN
County Carmarthenshire
Volume 24 Page 1589

Wills & Probate:

REES Margaret Gwendoline of 44 Glynderi Tanerdy, Carmarthen died 19 April 1977 Probate Llandaff 25 May.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
------------------------------------

Death of Margaret's second husband:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations)
Ivor Reynolds Rees of 38 Marble Hall Road, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire died 24 July 1957 Administration Carmarthen 30 August to Margaret Gwendoline Rees, widow.

Florence death:

First name(s) FLORENCE MARGERY E
Last name RANCE
Gender Female
Birth 11th April 1915
Death quarter 4
Death year 1998
District YEOVIL
District number 7263B
Register number B10
Entry number 037
Date of registration mm/yy 1198
County Somerset

Death of Thomas James:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),

James- Thomas of 19 Derwent Street Llanelly, Carmarthenshire died 29 June 1935 at Llanelly Hospital, Llanelly Administration Carmarthen 16 September to Margaret Gwendolne James, widow.

------------------------------------------------------

Death
Name: Thomas James
Birth Date: abt 1889
Date of Registration: Sep 1935
Age at Death: 46
Registration district: Llanelly
Inferred County: Carmarthenshire
Volume: 11a Page: 935

Dmjs- I know when Henry David Thomas James was born, Thomas was listed as 'outfitter'- did he have the same occupation listed on his marriage certificate in 1912?

The birth of Thomas and Margaret's daughter in Swansea fits with the article you found re Thomas James Lewis:

Western Daily Press - Wednesday 18 March 1914

ADJUDICATIONS
Thomas James (trading as Thomas James Lewis) 69 Mansel Street, Swansea, tailor and outfitter
----------------------------------------------

Birmingham Daily Post - Wednesday 25 March 1914

BANKRUPTCY: RECEIVING ORDERS
Public Examinations

T. James (trading as Thomas James Lewis), Mansel Street, Swansea, lately at Cross Hands nr Lanelly, tailor and outfitter

(looks like progress made since this morning, well done!.

Chris :)

(some items below)

http://newspapers.library.wales/

Carmarthen Police Court.
STREET SQUABBLE. Anne Lewis, widow, 66, St Catherine-street, sum- moned Mrs Lydia Evans, landlady of the Black Horse Inn, Water-street, for assault on the 1-lth inst.—Mr H. Brunei White defended.—Complainant said that when she was coming home from the market with some bread a Mrs Stephens, of Water-street, asked her if the defendant had called her a bad name. She said she had, and Mrs Stephens sent for…

The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser
27th March 1903


LOCAL NEWS.
The deficiency in the case of Mrs Lydia Evans, licensee of the Black…

The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser 9th October 1903


CARMARTHEN.
Transfers.—John Daniel, of the Albion Inn, applied for a temporary transfer of the license of the Black Horse Inn, Water St., from Lydia Evans.—The Town Clerk said that Lydia Evans had become a…

The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser

4th December 1903


(a nice one below!)

CARMARTHEN MAN WINS THE M.M.
Mrs. Evans, Pelican Inn, Bridge-street (formerly of the Black Horse), has received a letter from her only son, Corpl. David William Jones R.E.'s stating that he was awarded the Military Medal on September 23rd, and that he was very surprised to have been notified of it. Corpl. Jones, who joined the Army a fortnight after the war broke out, has been in France for the last three years...(also says married, 4 children, resides 8, Spring Gardens, Carmarthen)

The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser
(Second Edition)

2nd November 1917


1939 Register (Find My Past)

8 Spring Gardens , Carmarthen M.B., Carmarthenshire
David W Jones 25 Jul 1887 Male General Labourer Married
Margaret M (a on image) Jones 27 Nov 1887 Female Unpaid Domestic Service Married
Thomas John Jones 13 Nov 1912 Male Driver Salesman Single
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
(under above is James G. 10/12/21)

Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jones James G Thomas Carmarthen 11a 2679


Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jones Thomas J Thomas Carmarthen 11a 2629


Marriages Jun 1908 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
JONES David William Carmarthen 11a 2053
Thomas Margaret Ann Carmarthen 11a 2053


1911 (Find My Past)
David William Jones Head Married Male Masons Labourer 22 1889 Carmarthen Town
Margaret Ann Jones Wife Married Female - 23 1888 Carmarthen Town
William Dd Ernest Jones Son - Male - 3 1908 -
Lydia Mary Jones Daughter - Female - 0 1911 -
Address 11 Cambrian Place Carmarthen
Parish Carmarthen St Peter
County Carmarthenshire
Census reference RG14 PN33036 RG78 PN1894 RD599 SD3 ED2 SN80


Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Evans Henry Carmarthen 11a 1482
Jones Lydia Carmarthen 11a 1482


Carmarthen Military Medallist PRESENTED WITH FREEDOM OF THE BOROUGH.
Another name was added to the list of freemen of the borough on Thursday, the | 3rd instg( when Corpl. David Jones, Royal Engineers (son of Mrs. Evans, Pelican Inn, [ Bridge-street), was, at a public gathering at f the Guildhall, admitted honorary freeman of the borough in recognition of his having won the Military…(mention of old Model Schoolboy, details of why medal was awarded)

The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser
11th October 1918

1891 (Find My Past)
Thomas Jones Head Married Male 33 1858 Licensed Victualler Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Lydia Jones Wife Married Female 34 1857 - Llanegwad, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Rachel H Jones Daughter - Female 5 1886 Scholar Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales
David Jones Son - Male 3 1888 - St Peters, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary A Jones Daughter - Female 1 1890 - St Peters, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Anne Clark Servant Single Female 14 1877 Housemaid Domestic Servant Trellech, Carmarthenshire, Wales
House name Black Horse
Street Water Street
Parish Carmarthen St Peter
City Carmarthen
County Carmarthenshire
Registration district Carmarthen
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 4518
Folio 66
Page 12

Wow thank you so much I did not expect to see all of this this morning!!! So much to try and get my head around. I have never looked at newspapers before. I need to work out how to get to individual articles as this is so interesting.

Yes Thomas James occupation was listed as an outfitter when he married Margaret G. Evans in 1912.
His son Henry David Thomas James also listed his fathers occupation as a gentlemen's outfitter (deceased) when he married Elsie Pettit in 1937. They had one son born in 1938 but he does not appear on 1939 register so I am not sure if he lived. Henry divorced Elsie and married Jean Margaret Owen in 1947, however, he then listed his father's occupation as an animal dealer (retired)! This seems very bizarre. I've been told that Thomas James died during WW1.

This would mean that it is a different Thomas James to the one referred to above who's death is listed in 1935.

What people are told/ what people remember and what actually happened are often very different.

I'm sure the 1935 death is correct- he was at Derwent Street, the same address as Margaret was in 1939.