Find Ancestors

The first immediate ancestor I need to look for will be JAMES HERVIE [note the original spelling of the surname], father of Robert Hervie [who 'anglicized' the surname to Hervey].

I don't need any research on the son Robert, thank you. He was a wealthy Drysalter in Manchester and the surrounding area and I have researched him and his immediate family thoroughly.

I know that James married Isabella Kibbel in 1798 [various spellings for her] in Renfrew. I think this was his second marriage. I am descended from that marriage.

So far I don't know when he was born. At the moment from the information that I know, I will assume that he and his wife both died and were buried in England. Hope that assumption doesn't make an ASS out of ME ................ I know that he, like his son, was a Drysalter in Manchester; they were in partnership.

Thank you in advance.

marriage for ref



James Hervie
mentioned in the record of James Hervie and Isabella Kibbel
Name James Hervie
Spouse's Name Isabella Kibbel
Event Date 16 Jun 1798
Event Place Abbey Paisley,Renfrew,Scotland


Birth ???
James Hervie
Scotland Births and Baptisms
Name James Hervie
Gender Male
Christening Date 25 Sep 1778
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 21 Sep 1778
Father's Name James Hervie
Mother's Name Elizabeth Millear

Nicola,
There are a couple of Manchester based articles in Newspapers which relate to ra Mtr James Hervie, Drysalter in Manchester ( non personal)

As the dates are around 1814-1817, I doubt that these refer to a son from the 1798 marriage.
If it is him, and not a son from a previous marriage, it places him in Manchester at this time

for reference
James
Last name Hervie
Marriage year 1798
Marriage date 16 Jun 1798
Marriage place Abbey Paisley,Renfrew,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s) Isabella
Spouse's last name Kibbel
Place Abbey Paisley
County Renfrewshire
Country Scotland
Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

a maybe

Burial: 22 Mar 1841 Rusholme Rd Cemetery, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Lancashire, England
Isabella Harvey -
Age: 74yrs
Abode: Manchester
Grave: 3901
Cause of Death: Old Age
Buried by: H H Jones
Register: Burials 1835 - 1845, Entry 32889
Source: Private Transcription

Isabel Kibble

Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth:
10 February 1767
christening:
13 February 1767
LOW CHURCH, PAISLEY, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
residence:
1767
Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
father:
Thomas Kibble
mother:
Martin


james
Burial: 18 May 1832 Rusholme Rd Cemetery, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Lancashire, England
James Harvey -
Age: 75yrs
Abode: Moss-Side
Grave: 3901
Cause of Death: Cancer
Buried by: W. M. Walker
Register: Burials 1821 - 1835, Entry 12941
Source: Private Transcription

for ref as it ties in to year of marriage


James Hervie
mentioned in the record of Thomas Kibble Hervie
Name James Hervie
Gender Male
Wife Isabella Kibble
Son Thomas Kibble Hervie
Name Thomas Kibble Hervie
Gender Male
Christening Date 26 Feb 1799
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 11 Feb 1799
Father's Name James Hervie
Mother's Name Isabella Kibble
CITING THIS RECORD

"Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTJ6-YMS : accessed 9 May 2016), James Hervie in entry for Thomas Kibble Hervie, 11 Feb 1799; citing , reference 2:17KKPB9; FHL microfilm 1,041,088.

?????????
Name James Hervie
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Jan 1757
Christening Place OLD MACHAR,ABERDEEN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name James Hervie
Mother's Name Cecil Smith
Citing this Record

"Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYLB-3HV : accessed 9 May 2016), James Hervie, 04 Jan 1757; citing OLD MACHAR,ABERDEEN,SCOTLAND, reference ; FHL microfilm 991,206.

This birth is much nearer Paisley

James Harvie
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 8 May 1757
Baptism Place: Kilbirnie,Ayr,Scotland
Father: James Harvie
Mother: Mary Walker
FHL Film Number: 1041381

Thank you all so far.

I realise that I need to go into the deep dark depths of hand me down papers which may, just may give a clue as to his mother's maiden name.

Please give me a bit of time - I'll be back within 24 hrs.

The two burials at Rusholme would seem pretty certain at this point. But what does 'private transcription' mean and where does it come from? Is it possible that the first 'e' has been transcribed incorrectly, i.e., Harvey/Hervey?? And it would be interesting if both father James and his son Robert both decided to slightly alter their surname post crossing the border from Scotland.
:-)

I'm in shock here. I had no idea about the documents I have just found.

Years ago I was given a great bundle of 'stuff' about this branch of the family: letters, documents, journals, photographs, records, notes, hand-drawn trees, etc., etc., etc. I filed it all away carefully until I had reached that part of the family history. There is an enormous amount of information which I haven't tackled yet.

I was hopeful that I might find something in the documents about James HERVIE/HERVEY.

1. And some kind ancestor has made up a typed tree on a very old typewriter about him and his ancestors and descendants. The descendants I know about so please don't go down all those twists and turns for me, grateful though I am!!.

Beside his name is typed "b. 1745, d. 1832" which is helpful! It also confirms that he was married twice but there is a question mark as to her name. It reads that he and No.1 wife had 11 children inc "James, Elizabeth, Christina, Jane, Mary, Janet (died young), William, etc."

Then it confirms his second marriage to Isabel Kibble [my direct ancestor] who was "one of 17 children". It shows James and Isabel's children as "Sarah, William, Thomas, Robert [my direct ancestor], Carrick + 5 others".

Tantalisingly, this typewritten tree also shows that James Hervie/Hervey's father was also a James Hervie/Hervey ....................

I know for certain that James senior, James junior, Isabel Kibble and Robert Hervie/Hervey were all born in Scotland. The latter three all crossed the border into England and died there.

2. And deep in this bundle of 'stuff' is another typed document; equally old and fusty - but priceless!
It reads that James Hervey senior was living in Kippen Parish, Perthshire when his son, also James, was born. James senior "farmed his own land". James junior "helped on the farm and was sent to Glasgow into a bank - probably that of Mr. Carrick, a relative". It reads that James junior "came to Manchester in 1802" where he was "later a drysalter and also was agent for the Atlas Insurance Office from the time it was established".

We are unbelievably lucky to have all these records kept by our ancestors. There is masses of it and I can't even begin to think how I will fathom it all out. The joys of Family History .................!
:-)

It would then seem that the news paper articles in Manchester relate to son James from the first marriage.

However, the math and geography does seem is a bit odd?
Born in 1745, means he was approx 53yrs old on his 2nd marriage in 1798.

Kippen is actually in Stirlingshire but it's borders Perthshire.
Kippen and Paisley are about 50 miles apart.

The OPR Marriage Banns in Paisley "may" state where each of the bride and groom were from, but noticeably there does not appear to be Banns in any other parish.
If James Hervie was not from Paisley, I would expect the marriage banns to be read in his home parish too.

Hervie/Kibble couple were STILL having children in Paisley at 1802 which may rule out that they were living in Kippen in that same year
Son Robert was born in Mar 1802 and baptised in Paisley in May 1802

Sometimes, an occupation for the father will appear on the baptismal entry.
If this man wasn't a farmer, the Stirlingshire Hervies could be ruled out.

(below look to relate to Atlas, from google search)

Chris :)

Rates and Proposals of the Atlas Insurance Company ... for assurances on ...
By Atlas Assurance Company

(Institituted 1808, notes a Director named John Carrick)

Agent. James Hervey, Dry Salter Manchester

http://tinyurl.com/zh724zr


http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/tours/tour5/area5page27.html

(History, location)


edits (perhaps John one of 'Wills & Testaments' below)

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/


(also)

Glasgow Herald 1822
Anderston Printfield Works For Sale (Bleaching, Drying, Apparatus, Dying House etc)
William Carrick (Atlas Assurance House, who is empowered to treat for a lease of the works)

(could relate in with Dry Salter occ.)


Bankrupts.
The Manchester Times and Gazette (Manchester, England), Saturday, September 11, 1841

Robert Hervey and Carrick Hervey of Manchester, drysalters

This extra info may help to be sure that grave 3901 in Rusholme Rd Cemetery is the correct one?

James + Isabella are buried as HERVEY.

Also in the grave is a Jane Hamilton HERVEY , 19th Dec. 1842 aged 2 years - daughter of Robert and Jane Hervey.

Any help?

Dea x

This one looks certain to be a member of your family - I don't know if you have him yet?

Baptism: 4 Sep 1829 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Robert Kibble Hervey - Son of Robert Hervey & Jane
Abode: Douglas Bank Wigan
Occupation: Merchant
Baptised by: N. W. Gibson Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1844, Page 105, Entry 840
Source: LDS Film 2148094

also....

Baptism: 14 Apr 1834 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Isabel Matley Hervey - Daughter of Robert Hervey & Jane
Abode: Stony Knolls
Occupation: Drysalter
Baptised by: H. Fielding
Register: Baptisms 1834, Page 202, Entry 1613
Source: LDS Film 2357018


Baptism: 20 Apr 1837 St Ann, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Violet Milroy Hervey - [Child] of Robert Hervey & Jane
Abode: Broughton
Occupation: Drysalter
Baptised by: Jereh. Smith
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1849, Page 168, Entry 1341
Source: LDS Film 919408

I won't post any more as you probably already have them but there are lots of other BD + M's on Lancs OPC site:

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Dea x

As Nicola as conformed that Carrick Hervie was the son from the Hervie/ Kibble marriage, the timeline starts to fall into place.
If James's age is correct, then of course, Isabella must have been quite a bit younger than her husband.
As the names of her first child reflects her parentage, I suspect she was the child born in Paisley, in 1767 to Thomas Kibble and Sarah Martin

James Hervie and Isabella Kibble married in Paisley in 1789
Isabella would be around 32yrs old at time of marriage and her husband roughly 53yrs

Son: Thomas Kibble Hervie b 1799 in Paisley
Dau: Sally Hervie b 1800 in Paisley ( Sally inerchageable with Sarah)
Son: Robert Hervie b 1802 in Paisley
Son :Carrick Hervie b 1810 Manchester

Isabella was over 40yrs old when son Carrick was born

Based on the Manchester baptisms supplied by Dea above, at a guessthey probably relate the marriage and children of Robert b 1802 Paisley

Robert Hervey
Spouse's Name Jane Hamilton
Event Date 27 Aug 1828
Event Place Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England

Think I may have the answer.
It's a long shot but it sort of looks right and info fits

James Hervie married Jean Winning in Glasgow 1778.
Family Search....
Children:
James b 1781 Glasgow
Elizabeth b 1782 Glasgow
Christian b 1784 Glasgow ( interchangeable with Christina)
William b 1785 Glasgow
Jean b 1788 Glasgow
Mary b 1790 Glasgow
(The family now move to Renfrewshire)
Robert b 1792 PAISLEY
Janet b 1793 Paisley
William 1795 Paisley

SP shows a 1795 death in Paisley for Jean Hervie, and other name on the index is: James Hervie
If this Is Jean Winning and not the daughter, it leaves James free to remarry in Paisley 1798

The only blank time period sits between 1802 Paisley and 1808 Machester.
I suspect that any link to Kippen, Stirlingshire is possibly a red herring

????

Jean Winning
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 23 Feb 1760
Baptism Date: 24 Feb 1760
Baptism Place: Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Father: William Winning
Mother: Elizabeth Lundie
FHL Film Number: 0102912, 1042934

Oh!
This looks suspiciusly like sisters, Mary and Janet Hervey, daughters of James with Jean Winning:

Mary Marshall was the widow of Leuit Col Marshall
All children born in Mauritius

1861: Kingsholm Gloucester St Catherine
Mary Marshall 70 Widow b Glasgow
Emily Marshall 34 Dau b Mauritius
Louisa Marshall 25 Dau B Mauritius
Janet Hervey 66 Sister b Paisley
Emma Travell 22 Servant

1871: Albany Lodge, Tything of Whistones, Worcester

Mary Marshall 80 Widow of Lt Col. B Glasgow
Elizabeth E Marshall 46 Dau. B Mauritius
George R J Marshall 44 Son B Mauritius
William F J Marshall 41 Son B Mauritius
Louisa J Marshall 38 Dau. B Mauritius
Janet H Marshall 78 Sister. B Paisley ( Mistrancribed on Anc as Jacob)
Emma E Lee 22 Servant
Harriet Hitchman 19 Servant

EDIT:
Potentiial proof that it is Mary and her sister Janet

Nicola has all the info on Robert Hervey b 1802 in Paisley.
He married Jane Hamilton

Here they are at 1851 in Cheshire, mistranscribed a Henry
Look who is in their house!
She must be his niece

Name Age
Robert Henry 49
Jane Henry 49
Violet Henry 15
Rosamond Henry 12
*****Emily Marshall 25 Visitor B Mauritius
Emma Meyer 38
Ellen Clara 27
Laura Thomas 27
Mary Mayers 21
Elizabeth Herxshall 40
Duncan Gillies 28
Duncan Ferguson 30
James Ward 21

Well it certainly looks very likely GlasgowLass.

I doubt that Nicola will ever have the joy of discovering an 'Ag.Lab' in 'her' family ;-) :-D :-D

Dea x

LOL Dea
It also more or less proves that James's 1st wife was... Jean Winning!

There we go....
Another Mistranscription of the name Hervey
1851: Brewood, Staffordshire
Name Age
Jane Hewey 61 Unmarried B Scotland ( Jane Hervie b 1788 Glasgow)
Janet Hewey 57 Sister b Scotland
*****Mary Marshall 60 Sister B Scotland
******Lousia Marshall 18 Niece... B Mauritius
Mary Mannein 24 Cook
Ann Plowright Housemad

Strike the "more or less" Proof.
I would say definitive.

1871 Taunton St Mary Magdalene
Name Age
Elizabeth E Marshall 66 Single b Mauritius
Louisa J Marshall 58 Sister Singe B Mauritius
Annie W Mounter Servant

There's another Mauritius born man named Henry Marshall, but I can't tell if he is connected
Born circa 1821 son of William Marshall
He married Mary Charlotte Ainslie in India 1854
They also had a daughter named Louisa but were back in the UK by 1861.

1861: Misenden, Gloucester

Henry Marshall 40 Fund Holder B Mauritius
Mary C Marshall 25 Wife. B Mauritius
Alice C Marshall 5 Dau b Calcutta
Henry Edgar Marshall 4 Son B Calcutta
Louisa Marshall 3 Dau B Calcutta
Ethea Marshall 1 Dau B Devon
William A Marshall 1/12 son B Miserdine
Julia Caroline White 5 Niece b Calcutta
Charles F White 3 Nephew B Calcutta
Martha Faries 20 Servant
Eliza Telling 23 Servant
Elizabeth Harrison 25 Servant

This is 1871 return for above family and a bit of a mess.
Bedford, Bedfordshire
Thompson and Marshall are two different homes but have been put togeter as one.
Thompson family ends with Charles at bottom of pg34 and Marshall children start at top of page 36
The page in betweeen the two separate families is missing from the Ancestry version.
The missing page will contain the Marshalls.
mbers:
Name Age
James R Thompson 33
Jane Thompson 30
James Thompson 8
Arthur Thompson 3
Charles Thompson 1
----------------------------------
Louisa Marshall 13
Ethel Marshall 11
William A Marshall 10
Charlotte Marshall 8
Edward Marshall 6
Herbert Marshall 5
Ada Marshall 2
...Frances Marshall 19 (Mistrancribed but it says: Niece B NSW, Australia)
Maria Sheppard 26
Elizabeth Marriott 25
Sarah Humphrey 20
Susan Pope 20