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Alan I'm wondering whether you have the right Ellen Vary death

and whether you might want to consider the possibilities malyon and I raised (1901 census as prisoner), and the other possibilities I raised (1911 census, 1929 death) and especially the material offered by AustinQ, which would fit very well with Frank's birth and with the other possibilities suggested.

if that was the story of your Frank's mother, it would be no surprise if he was told she had died ... but his military papers suggest he knew she was living at the time he enrolled


The Ellen Vary arrested in 1923 in West Croydon at the age of 54, as posted by AustinQ, must be Frank's mother -- note the address given,

>>> Foster Rd, West Croydon, as in his military papers

and that must be the Ellen whose death I posted:

Deaths Mar 1929
Vary Ellen 58 St.Albans 3a 1523


I really think you have the wrong person / death.


We know you are looking for news of Frank between birth and military service, and the only thing likely to help is finding him in the 1911 census, and to do that we have to sort out what happened to his mother and father, to rule out his being with them

(and of course I do understand it is rather pointless to post the things you know that are of no particular help to us with this, like his marriage and death, except that knowing where he was might offer clues as well)

the Ellen Vary who died in 1907 was 44 years old

I suspect the Ellen who died in 1907 was this one in 1881

Name: Ellen Vary
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Samuel Vary aged 20
Gender: Female
Where born: London E C, London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Southwark St Saviour

they may have overstated their ages there ... I can't find them in later censuses

but in 1911 Samuel was widowed

Name: Samuel Vary
Age in 1911: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 37 Albert St, Islington, London N
Marital Status: Widowed


there just were not that many Ellen Varys around for the death in 1907 to have been anyone but the one married to Samuel

could this be the marriage of that Samuel Vary and Ellen ................ after the 1881 Census ;-)

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Samuel Vary
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Age: 23
Spouse: Ellen Butler
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 12 Aug 1882
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Lambeth
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: William Vary
Spouse Father: Stephen Butler
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Samuel
Occupation:- Corn Porter
Address:- 18 Princes Square <<<<< for both of them
Father occupation:- Gas Fitter

Ellen
no occupation shown
Father:- Bricklayer

Witnesses:- John Munday and Catherine Bay



1881 Census

Samuel occupation:- Potato Porter

Address:- 47 Red Cross Street, Southwark (a tenement with many residents)

I notice that Frank Vary married a Lee, which is a Romany name, did come across an old thread on here which gives an address as being in Forster Road Croydon, for ref

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1332704

I wonder if this might account for the various locations and possibly why they can't be found in 1911?

edit " Also Wilford Road and Forster Roads are no longer in existance, they started to pull them down just before the 1939 war"

it does suit the nature of Forster Rd in 1911 Rose - hawkers and flower sellers, and Ellen herself in the earlier news report described as a hawker


the ancestry link I put in before (I've fixed it, I don't know what happened but I'd put an unrelated link) has someone saying

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1721&p=localities.britisles.england.sry.general

'I know there was a wilford road in croydon surrey because i lived in the next road to it wich was forster road. wilford road got badly bombed in the war and forster road was hit also . so badly in fact that thay had to be pulled down the names of the roads are still there but the is a small park were thay were. i'm sorry john to correct you but you see i'm 67 and i was born down forster road . and it was called affectionatly banghole. there was an alley that ran between wilford and foster road's and the men use to gambel down the alley. us kids had to stand at each end of the alley and let the gamberlers know when the police were coming. some times they would leave some money on the ground and us kids would pick it up and go and buy some sweets.'

so since that was in 2003, 60 years before was during the war

it seems to have had a colourful reputation for some time

perhaps not Roma though, Frank didn't likely marry into a family known to his parents

his mother was Irish and his father had an Irish mother

his mother was poor and very disadvantaged in any case I would think

the report of her being abandoned with her baby does suggest that Frank was her only child, at least to that point

Yes I was just looking at the flower sellers and hawkers there Joonie,
as I've found it 1911 England, so no one needs to search. No connections there in 1911.

36 Forster Road, Croydon, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
James Baker Head - Male Navy 52 1859 Devon Stonehouse Transcription
Jane Baker Wife - Female - 49 1862 Hants Transcription
Alfred Baker - - Male Van Boy 19 1892 Kent Folkestone

posted that on page 2 Rose :-) - actually - not navy -

36 was occupied by a hawker (3 people in one room), a railway navvy (3 people in one room), and a husband and wife jobbing gardener and hawker (that family was 6 people in two rooms).

lol sorry Joonie, I've been dipping in and out and missed it, doh! 'navvy' certainly makes a lot more sense.

1871 George Street Kensington
Daniel Reen 1824 -1895 born Ireland
Mary Reen 1834 Ireland
Honora. born Ireland
Mary born Ireland
Timothy born Kensington London 1866-1906.
Ellen 1869 London.

1881 28 St katherines Road Kensington Town down as keen
1891 St katherines Road also as keen.

Timothy married a Norah and in
1901 Kensington Town
199,Portland Road

1881 142 Portland Road were Thomas Vary who married Ellen Reen so they were in the same area, making it likely that this is the correct Ellen Reen with parents Daniel and Mary.

Also maybe another connection as Ellen in 1871 was on George street and in 1902 she was fined for obscene language on George street.

Is it also likely that her husband Thomas was with another woman (Alice) by 1901 and had 2 children with her and then to go back with Ellen and father a child in 1902 (Frank) then return again to Alice.

Maryb.

and note that I posted full info about the Thomas Vary + Alice Vickery family earlier in the thread including their two! marriages

... the second marriage being in the same quarter as the death of Ellen Vary in 1929

I'm not entirely convinced that Frank would be Thomas Vary's son ... Ellen could well have been referring to a different 'husband', a partner after her estrangement from Thomas ... but we'll leave that for another day. :-)

We have applied for Frank Military Records so we can establish when / where he joined the army, and who he has entered as next of kin. JoonieCloonie could you give me some indication how you know his military papers suggest he knew his mother was living at the time he enrolled, as you say in your post please.

eek ... read back through the thread, was it Rambling Rose who first consulted the papers? I believe they are at FindMyPast and I looked at them there - he gave his next of kin as ... I forget whether it was Ellen Vary or 'mother', at Foster Rd

so it seems he did maintain a relationship with her

I believe the 'rule' at the time was that next of kin was always to be mother in the case of a single man, unless his mother was deceased, in which case father or sibling ... so maybe not a relationship as such, just knowledge of where she was living

I sometimes have trouble opening images at findmypast and I'm also in a bit of a rush today but I'm sure someone else would save the image and send it to you

sorry it was Sylvia in Canada and she won't be around til later in the day

if I get a chance later on I will or if someone else does, just leave a note here to say

This may have been where the information came from:

On Ancestry:

Surrey, England, Regimental Rolls, 1914-1947
Name: Patrick Vary
Trade: Labourer
Birth Year: abt 1901
Birth Place: Bedford, Bedfordshire
Event Date: (date of attestation) 1 Aug 1922
Event Place: Kingston-on-Thames
Age: 21
Regiment Number: 7076155
Regiment: Queen's Royal West Surrey

Next of Kin: Mother, Ellen Vary, 36 Foster Rd, W Croydon

that's it AustinQ - and that is all the image says, it is just a list of enrolments so the image does not provide any more info

nice to have though so I'll go through the process of saving and sending it to Alan later if someone else hasn't

Ancestry is exactly where the information came from ..........

as I posted on p.1 of the thread ....................


SylviaInCanada Report Edit Delete 8 Nov 2015 01:43


Surrey, England, Regimental Rolls, 1914-1947

Name: Patrick Vary
Birth Year: abt 1901
Birth Place: Bedford, Bedfordshire
Event Date: 1 Aug 1922
Event Place: Kingston-on-Thames
Age: 21
Regiment Number: 7076155
Regiment: Queen's Royal West Surrey

from image:-

Place of Attestation:- Kingston-on-Thames
Trade on Enlistment:- Labourer
Place of Birth:- Bedford, Bedfordshire
Next of Kin:- Mother Ellen Vary, 36 Foster (??sp) Rd, W. Croydon


--------------

and that is all that the image does say .............

I am sitting here with my mother (Frank's daughter), we have been going through all the post's. Mum and l agree with alot of what everyone has written from what we already know. We would like some time to go through again and then reply in more detail. Mum does remember Forster Road and Wilford Road as mention also know as Banghole. She remember someone having a horse in their front room at one stage. Mum lived in St Saviours at the time, and was at school with some of the children that lived in the aforementioned roads. The school being Elmwood School. Thank's for the information about Frank entry into the Military. We also doubt that Thomas was Frank's father. The mystery continue, although alittle clearer.

Perhaps also connected?

London Evening Standard 19 January 1897

Ellen Vary, a married woman residing in Haydenpark Road, Shepherd's bush, was charged with being drunk and disorderly, and with willfully breaking a window. At the request of Mr Bathurst Norman, who defended, witnesses were ordered out of court. He stated that it was a sad case.- It appeared in evidence that on Sunday morning, Mary Vary, the Mother-in-law, who resided in Lorne Gardens, Shepherd's bush heard a noise outside. She got up and 'peeped' outside. She then saw the prisoner come across with her boots off, one in each hand, and break the window, knocking the lamp off the table.- The Complainant said it was not the first time. Her Husband could not live with her.
- In cross examination the Complainant denied striking the Prisoner with a poker. Mr Norman said that in November 1895, the Magistrate granted the Prisoner a separation order, but her husband had not supported her.- The Complainant interrupting:- 'He paid her 1d a week Mr Lawyer'. - By direction of the Magistrate, Complainant was removed from the Court. -Mr Norman in defence said the Prisoner had received a message inviting her to the house to receive some money from her husband. When she got there she was struck with a poker, and knocked down and kicked.- This was denied, and the Prisoner said it was all through her husband bringing a woman up from Bath.- Mr Lane Q.C fined her 1s, and also ordered her to pay 7s, the damage, or be imprisoned for 5 days.
------------------------------------

There's another article in the London Daily News 4th March 1893 where Ellen confesses to stabbing her husband 3 times (after he told her to!). He then left her. The case was postponed until the husband could be found to verify events.

The above seems to be the same Ellen as her husband Thomas had mum Mary and here she is 1901

1901 Hammersmith Shepards Bush
Tadmor Street (same area as Lorne Gardens)
Mary Veary 53 born Ireland
Daniel Veary born 1881 London.

Maryb.

I'm sorry to say, but it looks more and more, like my Great Grandmother was not a nice person. The only thing l can say in her defence is, we do not know the circumstances which pushed her to do any of this. :-( :-S

Alan I think that's the right way to look at it, a poor start in life perhaps and a hand to mouth existence, turning to drink to make it bearable. Most of us have found similar among our ancestors.