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Thank you all for your kind comments. All this is taking time to settle in, and makes me wonder how my grandfather survived. Silviaincanada, it seems you had the same experience as my mother, (not knowing anything of your grandfather).

my father and his siblings hardly drank .......... a glass at Christmas was the most any of them had!

and may I add that my own grandmother's life changed enormously for the better when my grandfather died at 65 - she lived for almost 35 years more, deserving every minute without the drinking, gambling and adultery. A while back I was trying to figure out whether he might have married bigamously while he was in the military ... my grandmother had lost track of him at the time ... or (as it turned out) it was his widowed same-named father remarrying in his middle age and we had just never known that ... my mum said she had no idea but having known my grandfather, she would not have put anything past him.

one of the houses they lived in when my father was a child became a shelter for battered women for a few years in the 1980s, which seemed fitting.

my dad lived his life on a vow not to be like his father.

Alan ................

you do have to be ready to find out anything when you start researching your family history, from what you've found out, to bigamous marriages, illegitimate children in every generation having more illegitimate babies, even suicides and murderers.

My father never talked about his father. All I knew was that he had died when Dad was young, and that he and his two brothers had each received one part of their father's gold pocket watch, chain and town crest set. All he said was that his mother had managed to save that set from the time his father died.

I found out when I started researching that he had been an alcoholic, and "ill-treated" his wife. My grandmother died 2 years before I was born, but several of my older cousins had known her and said that "it was a happy release for her when he died", even though he'd left her with 6 children aged between 3 and 21. Grandfather was 42 when he died of TB in March 1914. His eldest son was serving in WW1 within months.

There were only 2 children over the age of 18, others had died. The eldest child was 21 but had a bent spine and was unable to work. Harry was 18 and working in the cotton mill, but then joined the army. The next child was 13 and had to leave school and go to work to help support the family. My dad was 10, and there were 2 others younger than him.

They did all turn out well

Alan I would seldom jump to judgment on any of our ancestors whose lives, and especially the circumstances they lived in, we cannot really understand

and I would say that especially about women, who had little control over their circumstances because of the little opportunity available to them and the little protection they were offered

and also, as Rose notes, the widespread dependence on alcohol, which was very profitable for some, and which placed women at risk both when they drank and when men drank.

I agree- It is impossible to judge Ellen without having experienced the hardships she was facing. There were not support systems available then.

I don't know if this is Ellen's husband- but I felt it only fair to put it up too. It's dated in the May before he married Ellen.

Morning Post 03 May 1892

Thomas Vary, a labourer living at 3 Talbot Grove, Notting-hill was reexamined at West London Police court yesterday on the charge of committing a brutal assault upon Elizabeth Bruce with whom he had cohabited. - The complainant, for whose attendance the prisoner had been remanded, now appeared to give evidence. Her face was encircled with bandages and her injuries had obviously left her in an exhausted condition. She stated that on her return home from visiting friends the prisoner place a chair against the door to prevent her from escaping and said he meant 'paying' her. He then proceded to knock her about in a brutal manner, and cut her face in several places with a hammer-shaped ornament. Suffering from great terror and fight, and in a half dazed condition, she ran to the window and jumped out; falling into the area beneath. She got up and as the prisoner again threatened her with violence she climbed the garden wall and took shelter in the house of a neighbour. She was removed to the hospital where she has since remained.- Police Constable 202X said he found the prisoner concealed in the dust hole. He jumped out and endeavoured to make good his escape by scaling three walls. Witness followed and succeeded in arresting him.- Mr Plowden said it was the worst case of the kind that had come under his notice. The prisoner had inflicted serious injuries upon the unfortunate woman, who was induced to escape from the window. He committed the prisoner for six months with hard labour.

Alan I think that's the right way to look at it, a poor start in life perhaps and a hand to mouth existence, turning to drink to make it bearable. Most of us have found similar among our ancestors.

I'm sorry to say, but it looks more and more, like my Great Grandmother was not a nice person. The only thing l can say in her defence is, we do not know the circumstances which pushed her to do any of this. :-( :-S

The above seems to be the same Ellen as her husband Thomas had mum Mary and here she is 1901

1901 Hammersmith Shepards Bush
Tadmor Street (same area as Lorne Gardens)
Mary Veary 53 born Ireland
Daniel Veary born 1881 London.

Maryb.

Perhaps also connected?

London Evening Standard 19 January 1897

Ellen Vary, a married woman residing in Haydenpark Road, Shepherd's bush, was charged with being drunk and disorderly, and with willfully breaking a window. At the request of Mr Bathurst Norman, who defended, witnesses were ordered out of court. He stated that it was a sad case.- It appeared in evidence that on Sunday morning, Mary Vary, the Mother-in-law, who resided in Lorne Gardens, Shepherd's bush heard a noise outside. She got up and 'peeped' outside. She then saw the prisoner come across with her boots off, one in each hand, and break the window, knocking the lamp off the table.- The Complainant said it was not the first time. Her Husband could not live with her.
- In cross examination the Complainant denied striking the Prisoner with a poker. Mr Norman said that in November 1895, the Magistrate granted the Prisoner a separation order, but her husband had not supported her.- The Complainant interrupting:- 'He paid her 1d a week Mr Lawyer'. - By direction of the Magistrate, Complainant was removed from the Court. -Mr Norman in defence said the Prisoner had received a message inviting her to the house to receive some money from her husband. When she got there she was struck with a poker, and knocked down and kicked.- This was denied, and the Prisoner said it was all through her husband bringing a woman up from Bath.- Mr Lane Q.C fined her 1s, and also ordered her to pay 7s, the damage, or be imprisoned for 5 days.
------------------------------------

There's another article in the London Daily News 4th March 1893 where Ellen confesses to stabbing her husband 3 times (after he told her to!). He then left her. The case was postponed until the husband could be found to verify events.

I am sitting here with my mother (Frank's daughter), we have been going through all the post's. Mum and l agree with alot of what everyone has written from what we already know. We would like some time to go through again and then reply in more detail. Mum does remember Forster Road and Wilford Road as mention also know as Banghole. She remember someone having a horse in their front room at one stage. Mum lived in St Saviours at the time, and was at school with some of the children that lived in the aforementioned roads. The school being Elmwood School. Thank's for the information about Frank entry into the Military. We also doubt that Thomas was Frank's father. The mystery continue, although alittle clearer.

Ancestry is exactly where the information came from ..........

as I posted on p.1 of the thread ....................


SylviaInCanada Report Edit Delete 8 Nov 2015 01:43


Surrey, England, Regimental Rolls, 1914-1947

Name: Patrick Vary
Birth Year: abt 1901
Birth Place: Bedford, Bedfordshire
Event Date: 1 Aug 1922
Event Place: Kingston-on-Thames
Age: 21
Regiment Number: 7076155
Regiment: Queen's Royal West Surrey

from image:-

Place of Attestation:- Kingston-on-Thames
Trade on Enlistment:- Labourer
Place of Birth:- Bedford, Bedfordshire
Next of Kin:- Mother Ellen Vary, 36 Foster (??sp) Rd, W. Croydon


--------------

and that is all that the image does say .............

that's it AustinQ - and that is all the image says, it is just a list of enrolments so the image does not provide any more info

nice to have though so I'll go through the process of saving and sending it to Alan later if someone else hasn't

This may have been where the information came from:

On Ancestry:

Surrey, England, Regimental Rolls, 1914-1947
Name: Patrick Vary
Trade: Labourer
Birth Year: abt 1901
Birth Place: Bedford, Bedfordshire
Event Date: (date of attestation) 1 Aug 1922
Event Place: Kingston-on-Thames
Age: 21
Regiment Number: 7076155
Regiment: Queen's Royal West Surrey

Next of Kin: Mother, Ellen Vary, 36 Foster Rd, W Croydon

eek ... read back through the thread, was it Rambling Rose who first consulted the papers? I believe they are at FindMyPast and I looked at them there - he gave his next of kin as ... I forget whether it was Ellen Vary or 'mother', at Foster Rd

so it seems he did maintain a relationship with her

I believe the 'rule' at the time was that next of kin was always to be mother in the case of a single man, unless his mother was deceased, in which case father or sibling ... so maybe not a relationship as such, just knowledge of where she was living

I sometimes have trouble opening images at findmypast and I'm also in a bit of a rush today but I'm sure someone else would save the image and send it to you

sorry it was Sylvia in Canada and she won't be around til later in the day

if I get a chance later on I will or if someone else does, just leave a note here to say

We have applied for Frank Military Records so we can establish when / where he joined the army, and who he has entered as next of kin. JoonieCloonie could you give me some indication how you know his military papers suggest he knew his mother was living at the time he enrolled, as you say in your post please.

and note that I posted full info about the Thomas Vary + Alice Vickery family earlier in the thread including their two! marriages

... the second marriage being in the same quarter as the death of Ellen Vary in 1929

I'm not entirely convinced that Frank would be Thomas Vary's son ... Ellen could well have been referring to a different 'husband', a partner after her estrangement from Thomas ... but we'll leave that for another day. :-)

1871 George Street Kensington
Daniel Reen 1824 -1895 born Ireland
Mary Reen 1834 Ireland
Honora. born Ireland
Mary born Ireland
Timothy born Kensington London 1866-1906.
Ellen 1869 London.

1881 28 St katherines Road Kensington Town down as keen
1891 St katherines Road also as keen.

Timothy married a Norah and in
1901 Kensington Town
199,Portland Road

1881 142 Portland Road were Thomas Vary who married Ellen Reen so they were in the same area, making it likely that this is the correct Ellen Reen with parents Daniel and Mary.

Also maybe another connection as Ellen in 1871 was on George street and in 1902 she was fined for obscene language on George street.

Is it also likely that her husband Thomas was with another woman (Alice) by 1901 and had 2 children with her and then to go back with Ellen and father a child in 1902 (Frank) then return again to Alice.

Maryb.

lol sorry Joonie, I've been dipping in and out and missed it, doh! 'navvy' certainly makes a lot more sense.

posted that on page 2 Rose :-) - actually - not navy -

36 was occupied by a hawker (3 people in one room), a railway navvy (3 people in one room), and a husband and wife jobbing gardener and hawker (that family was 6 people in two rooms).