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I wondered if Wood was from a previous generation, but Georgiana's mother looks to be Mary Cliff:



George Wakeman

mentioned in the record of George Wakeman and Mary Cliff

Name: George Wakeman
Spouse's Name: Mary Cliff
Event Date: 20 Aug 1818
Event Place: Nantwich, Cheshire, England

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I02501-3 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1786141 , Reference ID: item 2 p 67

Hi to all those interested in this thread. I am back.

I now have Alice Maud's birth cert. She was born 17/8/1886 at 1 Forest St, Hulme.
Her mother's maiden name was Crome. Typically with this family, I now can't in a quick search find the marriage of James Platt and Alice Crome which I would expect to be around late 1870s.

Another little mystery - In addition, I have also got Georgiana Wakeman's marrige cert to James Platt snr (b1836). James profession is shown as Policeman although in 1861 it was invoice clerk and Georgiana's father was a "registra of births and deaths". However when Georgiana Platt Wood married Joseph Wadsworth his profession was surgeon. Georgiana's sister Mary Elizabeth was a witness at both marriages.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

I am going to mow the lawn now and have a ponder

I don't have much time today- but will get back into this over next few days :-D

Oh, and who did James Platt snr list as his father on the marriage to Georgiana?

????

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
1, Christopher Place, Pancras, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Michael Crome Head Married Male 47 1814 Picture Dealer Norwich, Norfolk, England
Transcription
John Crome Son Unmarried Male 17 1844 Performer St Martins, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Maria Crome Daughter - Female 15 1846 Performer Ireland
Transcription
Emily Crome Daughter - Female 9 1852 Scholar Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
Transcription
Alice Crome Daughter - Female 8 1853 Scholar Coryton, Cheshire, England
Transcription
Sarah Crome Housekeeper Unmarried Female 21 1840 Housekeeper -

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Heigham
Church St Bartholomew Bt
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 11 Sep 1839
Forename Teresa
Sex F
FatherForename Michael
MotherForename Teresa
FatherSurname CROME
FatherOccupation Dancing Master


Baptism
County Staffordshire
Place Wolverhampton
Church St Mary
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 20 Jul 1852
Forename Sarah Alice
Sex F
FatherForename Michael
MotherForename Theresa
FatherSurname CROME
Abode Nutcrack Row
FatherOccupation Comedian


(if relating anywhere!)


http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 (Ancestry)

Name: Michael Sharpe Crome (Full Age. Dancing Master)
Spouse: Teresa Olivia Smith (Minor. Spinster)
Event Date: 1 Sep 1838
Parish: St James, Clerkenwell
Borough: Islington
Father Name: John Crome (Drawing Master)
Spouse Father: Michael Smith (Dancing Master)
(wits. Wm. Webb, George Royer. Residence at Time, (him) St. Stephen's Norwich, (her) 25, Coppice Row)


http://tinyurl.com/nc3w8xw

(mentioned in above, possibly more on google)


Deaths Sep 1878 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
CROME Michael Sharpe 64 Pancras 1b 43

https://www.deceasedonline.com/

(Burial on above)


http://www.norwich-churches.org/monuments/John%20Crome/John%20Crome.shtm

(John Crome info. and Memorial above)


Deaths Mar 1881 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
CROME Theresa Olivia 64 Mile End 1c 400

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Southgate Street, Hartlepool, Stockton, Durham, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Bunter Head Married Male 50 1801 Master Mariner Hyde, Isle of Wight, England
Transcription
Jane Bunter Wife Married Female 46 1805 - Sunderland, Durham, England
Transcription
Martha Delawell Daughter W Female 25 1826 Kept By Father Sunderland, Durham, England
Transcription
James Highman Servant Unmarried Male 22 1829 Errand Boy -
Transcription
Mary Ann Carpenter Servant Unmarried Female 21 1830 House Servant Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
Transcription
Bridget Canfell Servant Unmarried Female 30 1821 House Servant Ireland
Transcription
George Recardo Visitor Unmarried Male 25 1826 Vocalist Not Known
Transcription
John Crome Visitor Married Male 35 1816 Dancing Master Norwich, Norfolk, England
Transcription
Thresa Crome Visitor Married Female 30 1821 - Ireland
Transcription
Thresa Crome Visitor - Female 11 1840 - Not Known
Transcription
John Crome Visitor - Male 7 1844 - Not Known
Transcription
Maria Crome Visitor - Female 5 1846 - Not Known
Transcription
Susannah Crome Visitor - Female 2 1849 - Not Known

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Union Place, Heigham, Norwich, Norfolk, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
Michael Crome Male 25 1816 Norfolk, England
Transcription
Teresa Crome Female 20 1821 Ireland
Transcription
Teresa Crome Female 1 1840 Norfolk, England
Transcription
Lucy Crome Female 0 1841 Norfolk, England
Transcription
Harriet Read Female 15 1826 Norfolk, England


michael is a dancing master

Fab work!

- a tree on Ancestry also has this family- apparently Alice's brother and sister (John and Marie) were also performers under the name of 'The Barnum Children'. They have some newspaper articles too- worth a look.

There's also this on Ancestry:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Alice Mary Crome
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: Jul 1853
Father's name: Michael Sherpe Crome
Mother's name: Teresa Olivia Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Olaves
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

If you look at the actual image it's not a baptism but an application for a search of her birth- it's laid over a workhouse document dated 1878- looks like she had 2 children there (1876 &1878).

EDIT: It was impossible to see the children's names on the document but it clearly says born 22nd July 1878- so this must be one of the children:

William Henry Crome (illegitimate) born in Workhouse (Parish of St Pancras) 22nd July 1878. Name of Parent: Alice Crome.

So what happened to William??

EDIT: William's death:

Name: William H Crome
Record Type: Death
Death Date: 14 Sep 1878
Death Place: St Pancras, England
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register

WOW Safc, Chris Ho and Gritty.

I was going to watch the election but when i saw what you had all found I couldn't help but check it all out and see how it all came together.

The first thing that strikes me is my friend's family were entertainers going back 4 generations. Quite amazing.

It took me ages to find the census you found Safc. Don't know why, but without your input i would probably still be looking!!

Chris, the baptism info you gave me was great and I love the the info about the painting by John Crome. Goodness knows where and how you found it.

I downloaded the Alice Mary Crome "baptism" info Gritty and was able to have a good look at it. What a shame the card was over half the workhouse form. What I CAN see makes interesting reading.

As you say, Alice had two children, one of which (William) was born the day she was admitted to the workhouse on 22/7/1878. Who was born Oct 1876 we will probably never know. There are no records of a Crone being born in London in the last qtr.

The form says that Alice was the 7th child and that Michael Crome died about 2 years ago after he deserted his wife!

I believe the reason they found no baptism record for Alice Mary was because they were looking at the wrong years. The card says "not found 1851 to 1855". Alice later claimed to be born 1857.

So, did Alice actually marry James Platt I wonder? And what happened to her second illegitimate child?

This has become a very interesting Tree and thanks for all your help

Right, its 2.17. Lets see whats happening in the election


Gerry :-)

I was pretty certain, that despite Georgiana's listings for her father on her marriages, that the Wakeman's were fairly straight forward- but maybe not??. This is quickly what I had originally:

George Wakeman born c1790 married Mary Cliff in 1818 Nantwich Cheshire and had the following children:
George Washington Wakeman 1819
Mary E Wakeman 1826
Francis Henry Wakeman 1832
Georgiana Wakeman 1833

I had George and Mary as this 1841:
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Stapeley, Wybunbury, Nantwich, Cheshire, England
George Wakeman Male 45 1796 Farmer Not born in County
Mary Wakeman Female 35 1806 Cheshire, England
Mary Wakeman Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
Francis Wakeman Male 10 1831 Cheshire, England

And Georgiana with her Grandparents in 1841:
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
High Street, Nantwich, Cheshire, England
Joseph Cliff Male 40 1801 Upholsterer & drapier Cheshire
Mary Cliff Female 65 1776 Cheshire, England
George Wakeman Male 20 1821 Cheshire, England
Georgiana Wakeman Female 14 1827 Cheshire, England
Margaret Mullock Female 55 1786 Cheshire, England
Elizabeth Smith Female 20 1821 Cheshire, England
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want to confuse anything, and I can't see that this man fits- but wanted to put these up just in case:

Oxford University and City Herald - Saturday 15 October 1825
On Monday last was married at Thame, in this county, George Wakeman Esq, surgeon of that place, to Sarah Jayne, daughter of the late Edward Payne Esq. of Lash Lake, Thame.

Hereford Times - Saturday 31 October 1846
....The trial of the five jesuits proceeded, and they were condemned and executed on the testimony of Oats and Bedloe. But these daring witnesses were somewhat astounded at the acquittal of Sir George Wakeman, the Queen's physician, whom they accused of an intention to poison the king.

Bucks Herald - Saturday 23 August 1845
On the 18th Inst at Thame, Oxon, of a rapid decline, George, eldest son of Mr George Wakeman, surgeon, and late of St. John's College, Cambridge, age 19 years.
---------------------------------------------------------

This is the 1841 for George Wakeman (Surgeon) that married in 1825:

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
High Street, Thame, Oxfordshire, England
George Wakeman Male 50 1791 Surgeon. Not born in County
Sarah Wakeman Female 50 1791 Oxfordshire, England
Jane Wakeman Female 13 1828 Oxfordshire, England
Edward Wakeman Male 12 1829 Oxfordshire, England
Hannah Wakeman Female 11 1830 Oxfordshire, England
Susan Wakeman Female 9 1832 Oxfordshire, England
Herbert Wakeman Male 7 1834 Oxfordshire, England
Cors Mitchell Male 25 1816 Oxfordshire, England
Mary Herridge Female 25 1816 -
Eliz Wakelin Female 20 1821 Oxfordshire, England
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and in 1851:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
High Street, Thame New Thame, Thame, Oxfordshire, England
Sarah Jane Wakeman Wife Married Female 62 1789 - Thame, Oxfordshire,
Henry Terry Servant Unmarried Male 23 1828 Serv Groom Ashendon, Buckinghamshire,
Ann Higgins Servant Unmarried Female 25 1826 Serv Ho Maid Thame, Oxfordshire, England
Mary Griffin Servant Unmarried Female 25 1826 Serv Cook Ludgershall, Bucks
Herbert John Wakeman Son Unm 17 1834 Articled Clerk To Attorney Thame, Oxfordshire,
Jane Wakeman Daughter Unm Female 23 1828 - Thame, Oxfordshire, England
George Wakeman Head Married 62 1789 Surgeon In General Pract'Ce Buckworth, Huntingdonshire,
Hannah Mary Wakeman Daughter Un Female 20 1831 Thame, Oxfordshire,
-------------------------------------------------------------

Well! I am totally confused. No change there then!

I agree with you Gritty that George, the farmer, seems the most likely bet for Georgiana's father. I have looked all over the place and I cannot find another credible candidate.

It doesn't help that Georgiana, like half the people in this Tree, seems incapable of keeping to one year of birth. In her marriage to Joseph Wadesworth in 1873 she was 35 (1838) AND she acquired the added name of Wood, but when she married James Platt in 1858 she was 27 (1831).

Her father is either a surgeon, registra or a farmer. James Platt goes from policeman to invoice clerk.

Something isn't right!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg

Out of interest, who does James Platt list as his father on the marriage to Georgiana?

Joseph Platt, Farmer

I just want to butt in here to say what an interesting read and keep it in my threads to follow, and also to say ... anybody remember Clifford Mortimer? :-)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/mortimer%20%28clifford%29/thread/1127809

(You'll need a dozen more pages of posts to catch up to him!)

Clifford, the scenery painter, is still a mystery. He didn't exist before his 1904 marriage. Allan whose ancestor he is, is now trying the DNA route for clues, on my insistence, but no joy there so far that I've heard. Clifford is so like James, down to the locations, that I wondered whether we had found Clifford when I opened this thread!

Gerry you said James was shown as a scenic artist on the death cert of his wife Alice on 16/2/1916, where she is shown at the same address as in 1911 in the census Gritty posted on page 2:

1911: 25 Dante Road, Newington Butts SE
Alice Tyler Head 1865 46 Female Married 29 MUSIC HALL ARTIST KENTISH, Kent, England
May Tyler Daughter 1891 20 Female Single MUSIC HALL ARTIST Manchester, Chester, England SE
(Theresa Augusta the other child still living, but where?)

James is not in the household and Alice is shown as married ... do you know where James was? also where any of the family were in 1901? I'm not sure whether I'm asking the obvious unanswered questions or I've maybe missed something :-)

Gritty said on page 2 ...

'James is not present at his wife's death, nor is he the informant. He is also not a witness to his daughter's wedding and nor is he living at Chatteris Square or Dante Road.'

just for giggles, this is Clifford in 1911, the only sighting of him other than the 1904 marriage where he was recorded as 'Decorative Artist' and his children's births and then his death in 1930 where he was recorded as 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)'

Clifford Mortinver [Clifford Mortimer]
aged 50/1861 born London
Street address: 14 Greame Street Manchester
Registration district: Chorlton
Occupation: Artist (Painter)

Adelaide Mortinver [Adelaide Mortimer] (wife of Clifford)
aged 27/1884


on his 1904 marriage, Clifford's father was Joseph Mortimer, coach painter, who clearly never existed. ;)

so Clifford and James are sort of mirror image twins!

Oh Joonie, I feel a headache coming on! :-D

I don't know if Gerry has James Platt in 1901 & 1911- we know he wasn't with Alice in 1911, but as he didn't appear to be officially married to her, he was free to marry someone else. I had a quick look and couldn't see an obvious entry for him, although there maybe some possibles living with other partners/ wives (but none that are scenic artists). Of course, there is a possibility that James became Clifford. However, proving anything with this family is a serious challenge and sadly I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth for James or Clifford.

These theatrical people didn't give much thought to their future generations!

I'd be interested in what is on Theresa Augusta's birth cert, and where she was after 1891- I presume she also took a stage name? Although I see a possible death for her in Brent, Greater London, I don't see her listed on any electoral register. I wonder if her death certificate will provide any clues?

Oh, and Gerry- the marriage of James Platt snr and Georgiana in 1858- you said one of the witnesses was Georgiana's sister, but who who was the other witness?

OK, time for a lie down in a dark room


:-D

Hi Joonie, and Gritty again.

Sorry for not coming back to you sooner but we have been away again. Just so you know this happens quite often as we have a motorhome.

Okay, back to the important stuff.

Joonie, according to Alice's death cert i 1916 she was "of 25 Dante Rd Newington, wife of James Platt a scenic artist". In 1911, under the name of Alice Tyler, she was living at 23 Dante Rd. It may well have been the same address. The 1911 Census was actually completed and signed by Harold Bertie Connock also a music hall artist, and apparently family friend as he lived for with Alice Maud (Alice and James' daughter) and her husband at various London addresses.

I can find not a trace of James Platt after 1891, other than the mention of him on Alice's death cert. and marriage of his daughter Alice Maud. His occupation has always been scenic painter except for 1881 when he was supposedly a "car driver".

Neither can I find ANY of the family in 1901. We know the family were in Manchester in 1886 for the birth and baptism of Alice Maud but after that nothing until 1911.

Gritty, the witnesses were: 1858 Joseph Bailey and Mary Elizabeth Wakeman,
and 1873 William Wright and Mary Elizabeth Wakeman.

I have ordered the birth and death certs for Theresa Augusta to see if they can muddy the water even more!!

Gerry

omg Joonie....I remember Clifford (painfully) :-)

Jude

Now, now, Jude! :-D :-D :-D

Like Joonie, I find this thread fascinating. I have only just had the thread drawn to my attention by JC so have only skimmed through it, but Gerry's estimation of James Platt's dob of 1860 +/- 10 years, fits in nicely with Clifford's supposed dob of 1860. Clifford died in 1930 and his age on his death certificate is shown as 70

Allan

could this be James 1901 ???

RG13/3746 f 89 page 175 - 176 ---- 36 Byrom St . Manchester


James Platt - S 47y 1854 Male Lodger Manchester, Lancashire Theatre Printer Art
this could read as Theatre painter Art S. very thick lines written over it -- could some one else have a look and give an opinion ?????

Mavis

Ooh Mavis- Fab work- that looks good! Yes Theatre Painter- and then ArtS written over- which I think is just the category of occupation.

He is listed as single- but telling the truth isn't a strong point in this family!