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I don't want to confuse things but have you considered this family in the 1911 census as this Thomas Henry has sisters called Margaret and Elizabeth although they are younger than him rather than older:-

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation

Mary Ellen Morgan Head Widow Female 40 1871 Lancs St Helens
Thomas Henry Morgan Son Single Male 19 1892 Lancs St Helens Glass Labourer<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margaret Ann Morgan Daughter Single Female 18 1893 Lancs St Helens
Ernest Edward Morgan Son Single Male 16 1895 Lancs St Helens Glass Bottle Labourer
Sophia Morgan Daughter - Female 14 1897 Lancs St Helens
Elizabeth Morgan Daughter - Female 11 1900 Lancs St Helens
Annie Morgan Daughter - Female 7 1904 Lancs St Helens

Address: 17 Farnworth St St Helens, St Helens, Lancashire

EDIT - Perhaps not as this one is in the 1901 census with a father called Frank.

Kath. x

Ho Hum. Thanks everybody for your time and assistance and contributions.

Well, I am still inclined towards Mary Ellen McElroy being the one but haven't found proof yet :-(

She was born in Hulme just as the one we are looking for was ! - Name at the time was Mary Ellen Butler!

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BUTLER Mary Ellen Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/113/19

I will keep looking.

Dea x

Dea - The Mary that married Thomas senior (b1866) was Mary Connell b 1869. They married in Jan 1887.

Thank you

Not that one ! - Am I totally confused or have we been looking for Thomas's second 'wife' - Mary Ellen 'something' (who you had thought was Paton) ?? :-S

I am suggesting that she was the one I suggested earlier who had been married to Henry McElroy ???

Marriages Dec 1883
Butler Mary Ellen Chorlton 8c 1185
MCELROY Henry Chorlton 8c 1185

Dea x

Dea - sorry for confusing you. :-(
I am only really looking for why Thomas (senior) and his children Margaret, Sarah and Thomas are missing from 1901 census and now, of course, why I can't find Thomas on the 1911 census (seeing as he is ruled out from the 1911 entry that I thought I'd found.
Sarah was married in 1910. Margaret being older has probably had a name change (and it may be to Cochrane) after a wedding.

Thanks again!

That's O.K. Clive - I am easily confused at times ;-)

I am going to leave this until morning now BUT, I am not convinced that you didn't have the wrong Thomas on 1911, only that you had the wrong marriage for him to Mary E Paton.

If that is correct and the 1911 is him, then Mary Ellen McElroy nee Butler would still fit well.

She was born in 1864 but as she would then be older that Thomas she probably knocked a few years off her age and said she was the same age as him i.e. birth 1867.

The children Florrence and May belonged to her from the previous marriage.

I believe they just lived together as man and wife and never actually married.

Also it said that they had been 'married' 10 years and had had 4 children, 2 of which had died.

I discovered that Mary Ellen was a twin (her sister was Margaret Ann):

Births Dec 1863 (>99%)

BUTLER Margaret Ann Chorlton 8c 569
BUTLER Mary Ellen Chorlton 8c 569


Twins often 'run in families' and I did find this:

Births Jun 1902 - Twins !!

MORGAN Thomas Salford 8d 35
MORGAN William Edward Salford 8d 35



Deaths of the twins:

Deaths Sep 1902
Morgan Thomas 0 Salford 8d 39

Deaths Dec 1902
MORGAN William Edward 0 Salford 8d 6


These could very possibly be the two children who died ??

All this could very well be unconnected but I have one of my 'feelings' about it - It all seems to connect.

I will look again in the morning - we need to find her on 1901.

Dea Xxx

Just looking in before bed - the answer to who the Mary Ellen is in the 1911 is to get Martin's birth cert for his MMN - whilst I think Dea is right in what she thinks, the birth cert would hopefully prove it.

Just what I've been saying.................but no reaction to that idea from Clive!

Clive

Consider the facts as known

Thomas H was a HAWKER when he married, with a father named Thomas who was a LABOURER.

The 1911 census shows the head of the household to be THOMAS, who is a LABOURER, and the son is a HAWKER.

That shows that you have the correct census.

It also SEEMS to be the same Head of household in 1891.

Thomas snr did not marry the woman he called his 'wife' in 1911 as far as can be found, so to find out her name you will have to buy a child's birth cert.

Until you do that, I'm afraid you'll stay 'in the dark'.


For what it's worth, my opinion is that Dea has found the 'wife' and her children without any shadow of doubt

Clive, have you found Thomas & Mary (Connell)'s parents in 1901, to check if the children are living with them?

This looks like the Thomas Morgan who married Mary Ellen Paton in 1896:


Name:Thomas Morgan
Age:40
Estimated birth year:abt 1861
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Male
Spouse:Mary E Morgan
Birth Place:Scotland
Civil Parish:South Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish:Hulme Holy Trinity

Thomas Morgan 40
Mary E Morgan 26
Albert T Morgan 4
James Paton 17 -Brother in law

Yes Clive - please do get that birth cert as I would really love to know if my 'theory' is correct.

Dea x

http://www.sthelensrollsofhonour.co.uk/casualty-753-Ernest_Edward_Morgan.html

(1901 and 1911 reference on above)


Son of Frank and Mary Ellen Morgan, of 17, Farnworth St., St. Helens, Lancs.

Chris :)

(no idea if relevant Folks, saw above for 1911 posted by Kath, if anything helps, not wanting to confuse!)

1911 posted by Kath was discounted by the lady herself

(oops! yes, apologies folks!)

Chris :)

Well, it's a confirmed elimination, which is always useful

Hi all. Was out at work today so have just caught up with last night and today's postings. Thanks very much for your assistance.

Jacequline, Potty and Dea - I will look to get the birth certifcate for Martin (I hadn't dismissed the idea). It's just that it takes awhile to get these sent back after requesting.

I'm glad its been "confirmed" as much as can be that the Mary Ellen isn't Paton. Confirmed elimination - as you say.

Dea - looking through my research I had identified the other Mary (but as I couldn't find a marriage) and I could find a marriage between Paton and Thomas (albeit with a slight date difference) I had parked that idea. But I'll follow up my enquiries in that area again.
I'm also going to look at Thomas (senior) and Sarah that are living together. I also thought about tracking Mary Connel's family to see if Thomas (jnr) and possibly Margaret are staying with them. So good to see that was suggested also.

I am very grateful for your time..............

Thomas snr did not have a second name - at least none was listed when he married in 1887

The chap found in 1901 with a Sarah has a second name, and was born in Wales, which rather seems to rule him out

Jacqueline - ok thanks for that.

Come back to us when you've got that birth cert............we're intrigued now. LOL!