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In 1911 it states George/Mary Ann had 5 children still living and 3 dead. It would appear the 3 sons who were with George in 1901 were still alive (all 3 found 1911), so you are two live children missing. You have found a death for Ann (from 1881 census) in 1901 so she is one of the dead 3.

Unless we can find the family in 1891 you don't know the names of other missing children to try to eliminate them - but I'm having no luck in finding them in 1891 or Mary Ann in 1901 to see if she had other children with her.

You really do need the birth cert to go any further - we are just guessing here and still have no idea of the parents names with any certainty.

Hi yes it looks like I will have to get the birth cert.........people that I have contacted on here or on the ancestry trees or even world connect, don't go back from Ernest or Hubert!
One thing have you ever come across where the parent's weren't married yet the child still given the father's surname? I'm looking at back in that era. My maternal grandfather was registered under his mother's name as were 2 other siblings, yet all baptised under the father's name after the parents married and had a 4th child.
yet my paternal grandfather and all his siblings were registered under the father's name, but a marriage of the parents never found anywhere! also don't know if the mother changed her name? They were hawkers and part romany, yet both sets of parents of the couple married!!
Thanks for your help anyway. I haven't had to get certs before hopefully it's quite easy as I live in NZ.

I think the registrar would just accept the names given to him, so the mother could have lied, or the father could have registered the birth. It doesn't look like they were married, but the certificate should give more to go on.

You can order online from here for £9.25 - commercial sites charge more:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Mis transcribed as Butter in 1891:

George Butter
ge:37
Estimated birth year:
abt 1854
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Mary Ann Butter
Gender:Male
Where born:
Goudhurst, Kent, England

Civil Parish:Goudhurst
Ecclesiastical parish:
Kilndown
Town:Kilndown
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Street address: (Chingley Farm)
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image

Registration district:Cranbrook
Sub-registration district:Hawkhurst
ED, institution, or vessel:2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:695
Folio:15
Page Number:1

Household Members:


Name

Age

George Butter 37
Mary Ann Butter 35
George Butter 12
Thomas Butter 8
John Butter 4
Herbert Butter 2
Beatrice Butter 3/12
Thomas Butter 26 (boarder)
Henry Butter 24 (boarder)

Thanks again, just checked freebmd for Beatrice and found a death in 1894 age 3 in elham dist. which is where the family were in 1901, so that's her put too.

Yes I found the same, so think this family may be a dead end - unless they had a neice with them in Lyminge. Think the two boarders are George's brothers, they were living next door to George in 1881, with parents Henry & Elizabeth.

Thanks once again for your help, when I can get the certificate or find someone who has, I will post the results! will then need to find the said parents!!

Hi Flip,
I have made contact with a daughter of Hubert Law and she doesn't know her grandparents names, but knows some of her father's siblings names, Adelaide, Mabel, James, Samuel, Elizabeth and Edward. I checked the freebmd and found births for these names in the elham dist from 1896 to 1910. I also checked the 1911 census and found at least 5 names that corresponded with the births in the Elham dist. I was wondering if you could check if they are all in the same family Mabel is put as 1896/7 Apparently the occupation of the father is believed to be a flint mason and he was crippled from an early age.
Many thanks once again

James Albert Law
Age in 1911:40
Estimated birth year:abt 1871
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Male
Birth Place:Whe Thanet
Civil Parish:Elham
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Street address:
6 Oast Cottages,Ottinge, Elham, Nr Canterbury, Kent
Marital Status:Married
Occupation:General Labourer
Registration district:Elham
Registration District Number:66
Sub-registration district:Elham
ED, institution, or vessel:1
Household schedule number:6
Piece:4653

James Albert Law 40 Wye Kent
Elizabeth Law 42 Broadstairs
Alice Law 16 Dover
James Law 11 Folkestone
Samuel Law 8 Folkstone
Elizabeth Law 5 Elham
Ada Law 3 Elham <<Adelaide?
Edward Law 4/12 Elham

No mention of any disability - father is down as a worker, he was bricklayers labourer in 1901. Married 17 years, 11 children, 4 have died. Mabel is in Lyminge as a servant.

Does Hubert's daughter know of the siblings from her father or has she just arrived at them through research?

Something to check our maybe. There's an Elizabeth Chittenden Butler, born Broadstairs on 1881 census - she married Robert William Fuller in 1888 Thanet. They are on 1891 census with son Frederick G (1).

Robert & Frederick are on 1901 census - no sign of Elizabeth. Also Robert is on 1911 with his mother - down as married, 3 children but again no sign of Elizabeth.

I can't find any sign of a marriage for James Albert Law & Elizabeth - but if she was already married that may be the reason.

Hi, Thank you for that well the ages fit in and the fact that she said they were in the Folkestone area. she knows the names herself but lost touch with her father's family around 10yrs ago, as her cousin 'Ted' died, will ask who's son he was.
Now for me Wye is familiar with talking to my father-in-law, way back, but know he was born in Elham / Lyminge? area. Also he was a bricklayers labourer when I knew him just before he retired. He married in Elham dist and the family moved around living in tide cottages,the last two sons were born in Woodchurch which included my ex.
The lady even has a photo of Hubert's mother!! also just read your list of the family again, and it said 11 children born so Ernest and Hubert would make it 13!! would you be able to let me know who was in the family in 1901?
you said you couldn't find a marriage, maybe they didn't? my paternal ggrandparents never did and had 13 children! and yet both their parents married!....eventually!
Thanks for all your help .....I am waiting for a message from a lady in Australia who's father is Roger, Hubert's son, but is having difficulty getting much information from her Dad! she is also trying to find family in England.

1901:

Elizabeth Law
Age:32
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation to Head:Wife
Gender:Female
Spouse:James Law
Birth Place:Broadstairs, Kent, England
Civil Parish:Folkestone
Ecclesiastical parish:Cheriton All Souls
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Elham
Sub-registration district:Folkestone
ED, institution, or vessel:12
Neighbors:
View others on page
Piece:848
Folio:65
Page Number:17
Household schedule number:112
Household Members:
Name
Age
James Law 30
Elizabeth Law 32
Alice Law 6
Mabel Law 4
James Law 1
Richard Wraight 34 - Bricklayers labourer, born Wye

I think Richard Wraight is James's step brother - they were on earlier census with their parents, a mixture of Law and Wraight children.

If the 1891 census is right for Elizabeth, her husband was still alive in 1911 - so she wouldn't have been free to marry. I'll find the census & post up.

Elizabeth C Fuller
Age:22
Estimated birth year:abt 1869
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:Robert N Fuller
Gender:Female
Where born:Broadstairs, Kent, England
Civil Parish:St Peter
Ecclesiastical parish:Broadstairs
Town:Broadstairs
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Thanet
Sub-registration district:Ramsgate
ED, institution, or vessel:28
Neighbors:
View others on page
Piece:733
Folio:69
Page Number:29
Household Members:
Name
Age
Robert N Fuller 24 (should be Robert W)
Elizabeth C Fuller 22
Frederick G Fuller 1

The address was 6 Sea View.

James Law is a labourer, lodging in Broadstairs, in the same parish - St Peter's. His address was 2 Church Cottages.

This is Robert Fullers parents - they are on 1861/71 census, in 1871 with her father. So the Wraight name again, it looks likely they were connected to James Law as well.


Marriages Sep 1854 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FULLER George
Bridge 2a757
Wraight Harriett
Bridge 2a757

quote from My Fair Lady........"by jove she's got it"!...........I think you are spot on, I have a couple of same scenarios in my family.
Thank you so much..... if it isn't too much trouble for the census with the Law/Wraight mixture on would be great. I wonder if Elizabeth's mother's name was Chittenden? funnily this was a family well known to Ernest and family, there were a few surnames of of families from the area and I remember this being one of them

I think a birth certificate is a must, if you are to be sure James Albert Law & Elizabeth are the right parents. There is some definite links between their families though.

Robert Fuller's mother was Harriett Wraight, born c 1832. She is on 1841 census with parents Thomas & Mary, as is her brother Richard Wraight c1834.

Richard married Celia Harriss in 1864 (E Ashford), and died in 1868. Celia Wraight then married Samuel Law in 1870, they were on 1871 census with her 2 children Mary Jane and Richard Thomas Wraight (appears with James Albert Law in 1901). Also in 1871 were children Ann Elizabeth Law, and James A Law age 8 months.

Samuel Law had previously married Harriet Jordan in 1865, she died in 1869, but would have been Ann Elizabeth's mother.

None of this is conclusive though, but it gives some family links.

Samuel Law
Age:28
Estimated birth year:abt 1843
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Jelia Law
Gender:Male
Where born:Kingsnorth, Kent, England
Civil Parish:Wye
Ecclesiastical parish:Canterbury
Town:Wye
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Registration district:East Ashford
Sub-registration district:Wye
ED, institution, or vessel:1
Household schedule number:205
Piece:962
Folio:22
Page Number:36
Household Members:
Name
Age
Samuel Law 28
Jelia Law 27 <Celia
Mary J Wenght 7
Ann E Law 5
Richard T Wraight 4
James A Law 8 Months

Hi again I have found a death for a James A Law in elham in 1939 and also found a marriage for a James A Law in Elham in jun qtr 1938 to a 'Fuller'! but on the freebmd it doesn't show the other names! so I checked under the name of Fuller for jun 1938 and sure enough it says Elizabeth C Fuller and spouse Law, but again no first name. This I think seals it!
also found a death for an Elizabeth C Law in 1950 in Ashford dist age 81 so that fits.

I can't tie it all in yet, but James Law was lodging with Elizabeth's mother in 1891! She was going by the name Esther Baker. Had previously been Esther Butler, nee Hills. (married Walter Offin Butler in Thanet in 1863).

Here she is in 1901:

Esther Baker
Age:57
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Female
Birth Place:Broadstairs, Kent, England
Civil Parish:St Peter Intra
Ecclesiastical parish:Broadstairs
County/Island:Kent
Country:England
Street address:Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Thanet
Sub-registration district:Ramsgate
ED, institution, or vessel:34
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:828
Folio:120
Page Number:10
Household schedule number:71
Household Members:
Name
Age
Esther Baker 57 (widow)
Jessie Butler 19 (daughter)
Louisa Fuller 8 (grand daughter)

There's a strange 1861 census, I'll find and post it but can't make out if connected.