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rootgatherer
Interesting. Thanks for that.
I think in 8 years time I personally will be to old (if I am still around)
I am doing the tree, and will pass this thought on. Maybe she can get her grandchildren to follow it up, then
Thanks again for the help.
I guess in years to come, every one will know every thing about every one!! BIG Brother!
It's getting that way already, with supermarkets being able to see what one buys, and send cupons for discounts.
Pauline

I wonder then, if William was his father if he was registered under his mother's name but without a christian name?

This is the only birth that fits with the DOB in Salford to an unmarried mother with no given name?

Births Jun 1914
Hardisty Male Hardisty Salford 8d 106

or one of these?

Name: Male Armstrong
Mother's Maiden Name: Armstrong
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1914
Registration District: Barrow-in-Furness
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 1425

Name: (Male) Dawe
Mother's Maiden Name: Dawe
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1914
Registration District: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 267


Name: (Male) Hodgson
Mother's Maiden Name: Hodgson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1914
Registration District: Preston
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 955


Perhaps you need to just wait until the 1921 census is released and hope that that will shed some light?

In case any one of the helpers is still watching
Further update, To-day spoke with friend, and she says, that Ralph's daughter (sadly now passed on)was also unable to find birth certificate
The family story was , that he was "left on the doorstep" or may have been the son of the grandather.The ones who new the facts would never say!
Need Miss Marple on it!!

1841

Name: Harriet Keen
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: Manchester
Hundred: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View Image

Registration District: Chorlton
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 580
Book: 1
Folio: 37
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Mosrit Keen 25, Waiter
Harriet Keen 25
John Keen 9 Mo
Lucy Skipworth 15


1861

Name: Harriat Keen
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Sutterton, Lincolnshire, England

Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View Image

Registration District: Salford
Sub-registration District: Greengate
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 267
Piece: 2911
Folio: 26
Page Number: 45
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriat Keen 54 Married Dressmaker
Annie Keen 18 Tailoress


Deaths Sep 1877 Keen William Mossop 63 W. Derby 8b 353

????

Deaths Dec 1867 Keen Harriet 62 Manchester 8d 295


Name: William Mossop Keen
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 29 Jan 1815
Christening Place: GRASMERE,WESTMORLAND,ENGLAND
Father's Name: John Keen

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01682-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 97368
Reference ID:

Name: Ann Keen
Baptism Date: 14 Sep 1842
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: William Mossop Keen, Occ. Servant
Mother's Name: Haniet Keen
Archive Roll: 765


Name: John Keen
Baptism Date: 23 Sep 1840
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: William Keen, Servant
Mother's Name: Harriet Keen
Archive Roll: 764


Name: William Mossop Keen, Bachelor of Sring Garden
Age: Full
Marriage Date: 24 Nov 1839
Parish: Manchester, St Peter
Parish as it Appears: Manchester
Father's Name: John Keen, Servant
Spouse's Name: Harriet Seonion <<< looks like Senior on image, Widow
Spouse's Father's Name: John Smith, Farmer
Reference Number: GB127.M403/4/3

doesn't help with finding Ralph's birth though! just another surname to add to the mix

That makes sense Choccy - there's nothing to suggest she ever married Franklin, on Ada Mary's baptism she isn't recorded as Franklin, just as Mosoph. It's the transcription that has assumed the surname of Franklin for her.

She's recorded as Mossop and married on the 1871 - she would have been heavily pregnant with Ada Mary so assumed her father's middle name as a married name?

?? the Mosoph connection (Mossop)


Marriages Dec 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KEEN William Mossop Manchester 20 577

SENIOR Harriet Manchester 20 577


1851

RG number: HO107
Piece: 2223
Folio: 0
Page: 0
Reg. District: Salford
Sub District: Greengate
Parish: Manchester
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 5, Brownhill Street, Manchester
County: Lancashire

M.KEEN, William Head Married M 36 1815 Hotel Servant
Grassmere, Lancashire
KEEN, Harriet Wife Married F 39 1812
Sutterton, Lincolnshire
KEEN, John Son M 10 1841 Scholar
Chorlton Medlock, Lancashire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KEEN, Ann Dau F 8 1843 Scholar
Manchester?, Lancashire


can't see Ann Keen ever marrying anyone - but suspect she could be the mother of Ada Mary Franklin and others

Ada Mary Franklin ?

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1871

FRANKLIN Ada M Little Bolton Bolton KEEN

Oops, I deleted the baptism I posted and the comment I made once I noticed Rootie had posted the same already - but it was spotted and at least we're thinking the same!

or this one? In Ladywell Sanatorium

Name: William Watson
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Pendleton and Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: General Labourer
Registration District: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 44-45
Piece: 24087

Is this William in 1911?

Name: William Watson
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 58 Enbridge St Salford
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Clerk
Registration District: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Piece: 24068
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Farrow 47
Harriett Farrow 48
Amy Farrow 21
Nellie Farrow 13
William Watson 21

I think that it is MarieCeleste. There is a baptism for an Ada Mary Franklin (posted above) whose parents are John (also a Warehouseman) and Annie Mosoph. Either John Edward or Ada Mary's birth certificates would hopefully give Annie's maiden surname.

As Pauline says though, we are no nearer to finding the birth registration for Ralph Mosoph.

Such a pity that William Mosoph's military records don't seem to have survived!

Marriages Sep 1920
McGarr James Watson Manchester 8d 654
Watson Minnie McGarr Manchester 8d 654


3 children from the above marriage.(See FreeBMD)

Name: Minnie McGarr
Birth Date: abt 1897
Date of Registration: Sep 1948
Age at Death: 51
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 391


Name: James McGarr
Birth Date: abt 1897
Date of Registration: Sep 1956
Age at Death: 59
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 340

After 1875 there was a penalty for not registering a birth.

It is looking at the moment that he may have been registered under a different surname? Also I am wondering if Ralph was his middle name and of course we can't see middle names after 1911 on Freebmd!!!

At the moment given that William's (half?) aunt's married name was Ralph, my gut feeling is that IF he was "adopted" his mother was from William's family and not a Hudson.


I am just following up Minnie Watson at the moment and I will post anything that I find on her.


I was hoping that Ralph may have been mentioned on Theresa's probate but no luck, it was Mary Jane's girls.


Have you tried searching trees on here to see if any of the other people from William's family are there?

Thanks you ALL, for all the help given.
Plenty for me to work on. i will make a tree up.
Sadly the main question not answered. Ralph's birth
Maybe not registered? either he was illegitemate / or being born before the marriage not registered? How would he have got married with out a birth cert?
The family have been trying for years to find out his birth.
When did compulsive registration come in?

1911

Name: Mary Jane Ross
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Pendleton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 2 Penny St Pendleton Salford
Marital Status: Married
Registration District: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration District: Pendleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 23935
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ross 42
Mary Jane Ross 42 9 Children born, 5 living 4 had died
James Ross 14
Richard Ross 12
Lilly Ross 8
John Ross 5
Ellen Ross 2

Name: Theresa Park
Birth Date: 1 Nov 1882
Age: 0
Baptism Date: 3 Jan 1883
Parish: Salford, Christ Church
Parish as it Appears: Salford, Christ Church
Father's Name: Richard Park, Occ. Tailor
Mother's Name: Annie Park
Reference Number: GB127.L189/1/1/4
Address: 9 Ewait (?) Street


Births Dec 1882 Park Theresa Salford 8d 162


Name: Theresa Park, Housekeeper
Birth Year: abt 1883
Age: 25
Marriage Date: 1 Aug 1908
Parish: Salford, Christ Church
Parish as it Appears: Christ Church
Father's Name: Richard Park, Tailor
Spouse's Name: William Ralph, Labourer
Spouse's Father's Name: William Ralph, Cabinet Maker (Dec'd)
Reference Number: GB127.L189/1/2/10

Address for both 7 Woodbine Street

Witnesses: Thomas Ralph and Lilian Ralph


1901

Name: Theresa Parks
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard Parks
Mother's Name: Anni Parks
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Salford Christchurch
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Salford
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 3
Piece: 3734
Folio: 21
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Parks 69
Anni Parks 58
Theresa Parks 18
James Ross 31
Richard Ross 2
Mary J Ross 30
James Ross 4
Caroline Challoner 55 Visitor, Widow
William Challoner 24


1911

Name: Theresa Ralph
Age in 1911: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 7 Woodbine St Salford
Marital Status: Married
Registration District: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Piece: 24073
Household Members:
Name Age
William Ralph 31
Theresa Ralph 29
Anne Park 68, Mother, widow


Deaths Dec 1947 Ralph Theresa 64 Salford 10f 458

Name: Theresa Ralph
Probate Date: 9 Dec 1947
Death Date: 23 Nov 1947
Death Place: Salford
Registry: Manchester, England

Theresa Ralph of 7 Woodbine Street, Salford died at 91 Eccles Old Road, Salford. Administration to Ellen Whitehead, widow and Lily Halford, married woman. Effects £209. 0s. 3d.



Deaths Sep 1944 Ralph William 65 Salford 8d 500

Name: William Ralph
Probate Date: 22 Aug 1944
Death Date: 4 Aug 1944
Death Place: Salford
Registry: Manchester, England

William Ralph of 7 Woodbine Street. Administration to Thesera Ralpjh, Widow. Effects £177



Deaths Sep 1907 PARK Richard 76 Salford 8d 85


Deaths Jun 1919 Park Ann 76 Salford 8d 139


The Lily Halford that was one of the Administraters of Theresa's Probate.

Marriages Mar 1924
Halford Harold Ross Salford 8d 47
Ross Lily Halford Salford 8d 47



And Ellen Whitehead

Marriages Jun 1930
Ross Ellen Whitehead Salford 8d 723
Whitehead Charles Ross Salford 8d 723

Well done Choccy. That explains the Watson connection. His stepfather was a Watson so William's birth name was his mother's maiden surname of Mosoph (except she was a Franklin?) but he was known by his stepfather's surname but wanted his children registered in his own birth surname.

Pity there doesn't seem to be a baptism record for William's mother Emily Edith. I feel that the John Edward Mosoph is her brother or at least half brother. Annie is on the 1871 census as Mosoph and is listed as married but I can't see her husband anywhere on the census.




Name: Ada Mary Franklin
Baptism Date: 3 May 1871
Parish: Little Bolton, All Saints
Parish as it Appears: All Saints, Bolton
Father's Name: John Franklin, Occ. Warehouseman <<<<<<<
Mother's Name: Annie Mosoph Franklin
Reference Number: L265/1/1/1
Item Number: 1
Archive Roll: 619
Address: Little Bolton



Births Jun 1871 FRANKLIN Ada Mary Bolton 8c 337

Deaths Sep 1871 Franklin Ada Mary 0 Ashton 8d 378



????

Marriages Mar 1869
Bland Thomas Manchester 8d 338
BURGESS Annie Manchester 8d 338
FRANKLIN John Manchester 8d 338
WILLIAMSON Elizabeth Manchester 8d 338