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I'm so confused. I guess that John Joseph was supposed to have 3 wives. I see a marriage for him with Lucy Melton of Dersingham Norfolk in 1883. they had children. then on 1891 census Lucy is with either sister or mothe (Ann) who is married to Jacob Hines and John Joseph is listed with a (Carry from Dersingham) as his wife. but later comes an Alice Maria Clark of Dersingham I don't know exactly when Alice came, but I have a marriage for Alice & John Joseph in 1912. However, my grandfather's mother I understood to be Alice. my grandfather was James F. Mindham b. 1893 in Thetford. I understand John Joseph had approx. 14 children, but I'm not sure who belongs to which mother. I see Jacob Hines had a sister Caroline Is it possible that the Carry is Caroline Hines there to help with the childrlen while Lucy was away? but why did they list her as his wife, but I see no marriage for them? when did Alice come in ? why did they not marry until 1912? Pleas help, I'm so confused :-|

Hi Penny, as divorce was well nigh impossible for ordinary people back then it's not that unusual for people to chop and change their partners.

For reference, the 1891 implies that Lucy was Ann's sister:

HINES, Jacob Head Married M 32 1859 Farm Labourer Sedgeford, Norfolk
HINES, Ann Wife Married F 42 1849 Dersingham, Norfolk
MELTON, Ellen Wifes Daughter Single F 19 1872 Docking, Norfolk
MINDHAM, Lucy Sister In Law Married F 24 1867 Dersingham, Norfolk

Piece: 1562 Folio: 50 Page: 22
Registration District: Docking
Civil Parish: Sedgeford

Address: Docking Road, Sedgeford County: Norfolk

Is this your grandfather in the 1911 census? :-

1911 census transcription details for: Lowlands Wood Dalling Reepham

National Archive Reference:
RG14PN11201 RG78PN610 RD223 SD1 ED1 SN8
Reg. District: Aylsham
Sub District: Eynsford
Parish: Wood Dalling
Enum. District: 1

Address: Lowlands Wood Dalling Reepham
County: Norfolk

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born

MINDHAM, John Head Married M 46 1865 Labourer On Farm Snettisham Norfolk
MINDHAM, Alice Wife Married
26 years F 43 1868 Munford Norfolk
MINDHAM, James Son Single M 18 1893 Labourer On Farm Thetford Norfolk<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
MINDHAM, Albert Son Single M 16 1895 Labourer On Farm Brooke Norfolk
MINDHAM, Henry Son M 13 1898 School Brooke Norfolk
MINDHAM, Robert Son M 11 1900 School Shotesham Norfolk
MINDHAM, Fred Son M 9 1902 School Shotesham Norfolk
MINDHAM, Reachel Daughter F 7 1904 School Swaffham Norfolk
MINDHAM, Ester Daughter F 6 1905 School Oxwich Norfolk
MINDHAM, Phillis Daughter F 3 1908 Walsingham Norfolk

10 children born to the marriage. 8 living and 2 have died.

Kath. x

This looks like the same family in the 1901 census (mis-transcribed surname):-

1901 census transcription details for: Street, Shottesham All Saints

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 1853
Folio: 23
Page: 6
Reg. District: Henstead
Sub District: Henstead
Parish: Shottesham All Saints
Enum. District: 2
Ecclesiastical District: Shotesham All Saints with St Mary & St Martin
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: Street, Shottesham All Saints
County: Norfolk

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

MONAHAM, John J Head Married M 37 1864 Thatcher Agl
Snettisham, Norfolk
MONAHAM, Alice Wife Married F 32 1869
Munford, Norfolk
MONAHAM, Mabel Daughter F 12 1889
Snettisham, Norfolk
MONAHAM, Isabel Daughter F 12 1889
Snettisham, Norfolk
MONAHAM, John Son M 9 1892
Thetford, Norfolk
MONAHAM, James Son M 7 1894
Thetford, Norfolk<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
MONAHAM, Albert Son M 5 1896
Brooke, Norfolk
MONAHAM, Henry Son M 2 1899
Brooke, Norfolk
MONAHAM, Robert Son M 0 (6 MOS) 1901
Shotesham, Norfolk

Kath. x

Is this your grandfather's service records?

Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, 1914-1918

Name: James Frederick Mindham
Residence: Branford, Ontario
Birth Date: 18 Oct 1893
Birth Location: Theleford, Norfolk, England
Relative: Alex Mindham - actually Alice on the original.
Relationship: Mother
Regiment Number: 6432

This seems to confuse things a bit. Apart from the 1883 marriage of Lucy Melton to John Joseph Mindham there is also this marriage in 1887:-

Name: MELTON, Lucy
Registration district: Docking
County: Norfolk
Year of registration: 1887
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 4B
Page no: 790

Name: MINDHAM, William Charles
Registration district: Docking
County: Norfolk
Year of registration: 1887
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 4B
Page no: 790

EDIT - there seems to be two Lucy Meltons born c 1866.1867. One in Docking and one in Dersingham.

I think the only way to find out which child has which mother would be to buy all of the birth certificates which could prove costly, although it looks as if John Joseph was with Alice from at least the 1901 census.

This is the reference for your grandfather's birth certificate:-


Name: MINDHAM, James Frederick
Registration district: Thetford
County: Norfolk
Year of registration: 1893
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume no: 4B
Page no: 363

Kath. x

This looks like your grandfather going to Canada - possibly with his brother:-

Name: Jas F MINDHAM
Date of departure: 30 April 1914
Port of departure: Southampton
Destination port: Quebec
Destination country: Canada
Date of Birth: 1894 (calculated from age)
Age: 20
Marital Status:
Sex: Male
Occupation: Farmer
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 7 of 30

The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -
Albt V MINDHAM

Ship: ANDANIA
Official Number: 135481
Master's name: J A Woolfe
Steamship Line: Cunard
Where bound: Montreal, Canada
Square feet:
Registered tonnage: 8275.30
Passengers on voyage: 963

Kath. x

yes James F. is my grandfather. I couldn't find the 1901 census for him and I couldn't find where Alice was in 1891. So Alice had been around since 1901. Why would they not get married until 1912? So Lucy got remarried ? I don't know a William Charles Mindham. Is he related to my grandfather ? Who is Carry ? I don't have any idea on how to find out who she is. This why it's confusing to me because there are so many people involved with one person. I don't know how much it would cost to get a copy of each child's birth certificate. Is there a web site I could find out how to get copies and how much it would be ? yes my grandfather was in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. He was in England and France and had a gun shot would to his knee in WW I.
Thank you everyone so much this gives me so much more to go on.

baptisms of the children in the 1891 census
mother = Lucy

Name: Anna Louisa Mindham
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 30 Nov 1884
Christening Place: Snettisham, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Joseph Mindham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Lucy Mindham
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04619-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2299762
Reference ID: item 22 p 97

Name: Henry William Mindham
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 01 Apr 1887
Christening Place: Snettisham, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Joseph Mindham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Lucy Mindham
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04619-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2299762
Reference ID: item 22 p 102

Name: Florence Mabel Mindham
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 05 Aug 1888
Christening Place: Snettisham, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Mindham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Lucy Mindham
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04619-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2299762
Reference ID: item 22 p 104

Name: John Joseph Mindham
Birth Date: 1863
Birthplace:
Age: 20
Spouse's Name: Lucy Melton
Spouse's Birth Date: 1864
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 19
Event Date: 29 Sep 1883
Event Place: Snettisham, Norfolk, England
Father's Name: Thomas Mindham
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Robert John Melton
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I05429-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1657179
Reference ID: Item 33 p163

probably the Isabella Mindham shown on the 1891 census

so maybe Carry is Alice Marie Clarke


Name: Annie Isabelle Clarke
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 07 Jul 1888
Christening Place: Snettisham, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Alice Maria Clarke
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04619-1

Births Sep 1888 (>99%)

CLARKE Ann Isabella Docking 4b 303 S
MINDHAM Florence Mabel Docking 4b 303 S

1891

Name: John Mindham
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Carry Mindham - b. Dersingham AKA -Alice Maria Clarke???
Gender: Male
Where born: Snettisham

Civil parish: Thetford St Peter
Ecclesiastical parish: Thetford St Peter
Town: Thetford
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Thetford
Sub-registration district: Thetford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1577
Folio: 10
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
John Mindham 26
Carry Mindham 25
Annie Mindham 6
Mabel Mindham 3
Isabella Mindham 5 (looks like age 3 on original) >>>CLARKE Ann Isabella

Marriages Sep 1886 (>99%)
HINES Jacob Docking 4b 458
MELTON Ann Docking 4b 458

County Norfolk
Place Snettisham
Church St Mary
RegisterNumber 348
MarriageDate 29 Oct 1887
GroomForename William Charles
GroomSurname MINDHAM
GroomAge 26
GroomParish Snettisham
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode
BrideForename Lucy
BrideSurname MELTON
BrideAge 22
BrideParish Snettisham
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode
GroomFatherForename John
GroomFatherSurname MINDHAM
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename
BrideFatherSurname
BrideFatherOccupation
WitnessOneForename John
WitnessOneSurname DIX
WitnessTwoForename Anna
WitnessTwoSurname MINDHAM

County Norfolk
Place Snettisham
Church St Mary
RegisterNumber 325
MarriageDate 29 Sep 1883
GroomForename John Joseph
GroomSurname MINDHAM
GroomAge 20
GroomParish Snettisham
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode
BrideForename Lucy
BrideSurname MELTON
BrideAge 19
BrideParish Snettisham
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode
GroomFatherForename Thomas
GroomFatherSurname MINDHAM
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename Robert John
BrideFatherSurname MELTON
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename Thomas
WitnessOneSurname MINDHAM
WitnessTwoForename Frances
WitnessTwoSurname MINDHAM
Notes Both witnesses signed x


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Docking
Church St Mary
RegisterNumber 208
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 15 Oct 1865
Forename Lucy
Sex -
FatherForename
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname
MotherSurname MELTON
Abode
FatherOccupation

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Sedgeford
Church St. Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 2531
DateOfBirth 28 Jan 1872
BaptismDate 23 Jan 1885
Forename Ellen
Sex F
FatherForename
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname
MotherSurname MELTON
Abode Sedgeford
FatherOccupation Single woman


(above from below link, can be useful Norfolk)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)


County Norfolk
Place Sedgeford
Church St. Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 480
MarriageDate 18 Sep 1886
GroomForename Jacob
GroomSurname HINES
GroomAge 28
GroomParish Sedgeford
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Laborer
GroomAbode Sedgeford
BrideForename Ann
BrideSurname MELTON
BrideAge 28
BrideParish Sedgeford
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Sedgeford
GroomFatherForename Robert
GroomFatherSurname HINES
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename Robert
BrideFatherSurname MELTON
BrideFatherOccupation Laborer
WitnessOneForename Thomas
WitnessOneSurname MINDHAM
WitnessTwoForename Margaret
WitnessTwoSurname HINES
Notes His mark: Her mark

Penny, in answer to your question about certificates, they are £9.25 (inc postage worldwide) and you get them from GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

pm from Penny:

"thank you for responding. is it unusual or not to have a sister that is 20 yrs difference in age ? Penny"

Penny, no - it's not that unusual at all.

I see that Isabella could be Annie Isabella Clark. Alice's daughter. then is it possible that Alice and John Joseph were together before the 1891 census? Is it possible the person who did the census put the wrong name in (Carry) instead of Alice or that Carry maybe was his pet name for Alice ? So, Lucy's Baptism gives no father's name, but was at Docking. Is that then the other Lucy Melton or my Lucy Melton ? (if there are 2 of them). then Ellen Melton's mom Ann was not married when she had her & gives no dad's name. witnesses to John Joseph & Lucy Melton's marriage were Thomas Mindham & Frances Mindham is this his brother Thomas & Thomas' wife Frances Melton? now I'm confused on the witnesses for marriage for Jacob Hines & Ann Melton as John Dix ? and Anna Mindham ?, Thomas Mindham ? Margaret Hines ? I guess this is what family history is,"one question after another". Thank you so much for all your help

1. Isabella could be Annie Isabella Clark. Alice's daughter. then is it possible that Alice and John Joseph were together before the 1891 census?

Yes that seems to be the likely scenario

2. Is it possible the person who did the census put the wrong name in (Carry) instead of Alice or that Carry maybe was his pet name for Alice ?

Yes , or the enumerator misheard the name

3. Lucy's Baptism gives no father's name, but was at Docking. Is that then the other Lucy Melton or my Lucy Melton ? (if there are 2 of them).

There are 2 Lucy Melton's -

one born in Docking, mother = Ann father unknown
this one married William Mindham , they are in Snettisham in 1891 census
in 1881 this Lucy Melton is living with John and ELizabeth DIX and is listed as niece, Eliabeth's mdn was Melton

second Lucy b. Dersingham f. Robert John m. Mary Ann
married John Joseph Mindham, they are separated in 1891, the children are living with the father and "Carry"
in 1881 census living in Ringstead, Norfolk as a servant
in 1871 seems to be the workhouse in Docking

Ellen Melton's mom Ann was not married when she had her & gives no dad's name.
YES

Ann Melton daughter of Robert John and MAry Ann
married Jacob Hines

2 children when unmarried

Lucy married William Mindham
Ellen married Herbert Rawling 1896


Ann with parents and sister Elizabeth in 1861

Name: Robert Melton
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Melton
Gender: Male
Where born: Docking, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Dersingham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England



Registration district: Docking
Sub-registration district: Snettisham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 83
Piece: 1249
Folio: 87
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Melton 42
Mary Ann Melton 40
Ann Melton 11
Elizabeth Melton 9
Matthew Melton 5