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I am hoping some one can explain this to me. Arthur Carman weds Dec 1891 to Jane Rebecca Dewry..There is a Arthur Carman born abt 1869 to Riley and Mary Carman,also another Arthur born to Frederick and Ann Elizabeth,maiden name Carman born the same area Fordham/Hilgay,Norfolk 1901 census Arthur Brundle is with Jane Rebecca in Methwold with 2 kids.On 1911 census Arthur Carman with wife and same kids are named as Carmans ,and on the back of the 1911 census Brundle is crossed out and Carman is his signature.On the census Edith Brundle Carman appears ..So the question is is he a Carman as on his wedding or a Brandle as on his probate in 1922.Cheers BOB

How can his 'Probate' be 1922 if he died in 1931?

Who did he name as his father on his MC, Riley or Frederick?

If it was Riley, it could be that Riley and Mary weren't married and that technically he should have her maiden name. Perhaps he had a falling out with his 'Dad' and took his mother's name?

SORRY Reggie he died 16 July 1931, his dad died 8/1/1922 well spotted

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 about Arthur Brundle

Arthur Brundle
Probate Date: 2 Feb 1932
Death Date: 16 Jul 1931
Death Place: Norfolk, England
Registry: London, England

DeiEcTive I haven't seen the wed cert,but that might help

Where is the gro ref for the marriage, cos I can't find it!

If they married in Norfolk, you might be able to find a transcribed copy on line which ought to name the father.

Various sites - just google Norfolk Parish Records

DeIEcTive found it on Freebmd Dec 1891 District Downham Vol 4b page 1008,not on ancestry Regards Bob

DeiEcTive,Thanks for your help ,I will probably buy a copy of the MC .Not an easy one to solve is it. Cheers Bob

OK got it now.

Marriages Dec 1891 (>99%)
Buckenham William Downham 4b 1008
>>>>Carman Arthur Downham 4b 1008
>>>>Dewy Jane Rebecca Downham 4b 1008
Ovendale Mary Downham 4b 1008

Unless someone else comes up with an idea, or can find a transcription on line, you're probably right to go with purchasing the MC.

Civil Registration event: Birth


Name: CARMAN, Arthur
Registration district: Downham
County: Norfolk
Year of registration: 1869
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume no: 4B
Page no: 339

1871 census transcription details for: Seg Fen Drove Rose Farm, Hilgay

PrintClose
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 1867
Folio: 194
Page: 11
Reg. District: Downham
Sub District: Downham
Parish: Hilgay
Enum. District: 9
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Seg Fen Drove Rose Farm, Hilgay
County: Norfolk
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
CARMAN, Riley Head M 44 1827 Norfolk
CARMAN, Mary Wife F 43 1828 Norfolk
CARMAN, Abraham Son M 23 1848 Norfolk
CARMAN, William Son M 18 1853 Norfolk
CARMAN, John Son M 15 1856 Norfolk
CARMAN, Susanna Daughter F 14 1857 Norfolk
CARMAN, Mary J Daughter F 10 1861 Norfolk
CARMAN, Joseph Son M 7 1864 Norfolk
CARMAN, Sarah A Daughter F 5 1866 Norfolk
CARMAN, Arthur Son M 2 1869 Norfolk
CARMAN, Emma Daughter F 0 1871 Norfolk

Deaths Dec 1893
Carman Riley 66 Downham 4b 239


Deaths Sep 1885
Carman Mary 56 Downham 4b 199 >>>>>

EDIT >>>>not the right Mary as she is on the 1891 with Riley

not at home in 1891
1891 England Census about Riley Carman
Name: Riley Carman
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Carman
Gender: Male
Where born: Denver, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Hilgay
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Hilgay
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street Address:6 Sedge Grove

Occupation:Ag kab

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Downham
Sub-registration district: Downham
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1572
Folio: 126
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Riley Carman 63
Mary Carman 62
Sarah Ann Carman 23
Emma Carman 20

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1572; Folio: 126; Page: 4; GSU roll: 6096682.

He isnt with the family in 1881 either

1881 England Census about Riley Carman
Name: Riley Carman
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Carman
Gender: Male
Where born: Denver, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Hilgay
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street Address: The Fen
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Agricultural Laborer
Registration district: Downham
Sub-registration district: Downham
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2005
Folio: 32
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
Riley Carman 54
Mary Carman 52
Joseph Carman 17
Sarah A. Carman 15
Emma Carman 10

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 2005; Folio: 32; Page: 9; GSU

Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Fordham
Church St Mary Tr
RegisterNumber 277
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 23 Mar 1869
Forename Arthur
Sex -
FatherForename
MotherForename Elizabeth
FatherSurname
MotherSurname CARMAN

(above is on below, if fitting anywhere)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)

so the other Arthur
1881 census
Name: Arthur Brundle
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick Brundle
Mother's name: Elizabeth Brundle
Gender: Male
Where born: Fordham, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Hilgay
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street Address: Station Drove
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Farmers Son
Registration district: Downham
Sub-registration district: Downham
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2005
Folio: 38
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Frederick Brundle 31
Elizabeth Brundle 30
Arthur Brundle 12
Albert Brundle 6
Ernest Brundle 4
Edith Brundle 2

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 2005; Folio: 38; Page: 22; GSU roll: 1341484.

Marriages Dec 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atkins William Downham 4b 984
>>>>BRUNDALE Frederick Downham 4b 984
>>>>Carman Elizabeth Downham 4b 984
Warnes Emma Downham 4b 984


1881

RG number: RG11
Piece: 2005
Folio: 38
Page: 22
Reg. District: Downham
Sub District: Downham
Parish: Hilgay
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Station Drove, Hilgay
County: Norfolk

BRUNDLE, Frederick Head Married M 31 1850 Farmer Of 70 Ac Employing 2 Men 1 Boy
Hilgay, Norfolk
BRUNDLE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 30 1851 Farmers Wife
Denver, Norfolk
>>>>BRUNDLE, Arthur Son Single M 12 1869 Farmers Son
Fordham, Norfolk
BRUNDLE, Albert Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar
Hilgay, Norfolk
BRUNDLE, Ernest Son Single M 4 1877 Scholar
Hilgay, Norfolk
BRUNDLE, Edith Dter Single F 2 1879
Hilgay, Norfolk

birth of Arthur - presumable took on name of Brundle, or Frederick Brundle was indeed his father


Births Jun 1869 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carman Arthur Downham 4b 339

County Norfolk
Place Hilgay
Church All Saints
RegisterNumber 436
MarriageDate 02 Nov 1872
GroomForename Frederick
GroomSurname BRUNDALL
GroomAge 22
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Hilgay
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname CARMAN
BrideAge 22
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation Labourer
BrideAbode Hilgay
GroomFatherForename Charles
GroomFatherSurname BRUNDALL
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename Riley
BrideFatherSurname CARMAN
BrideFatherOccupation Labourer
WitnessOneForename William
WitnessOneSurname CARMAN
WitnessTwoForename Maria
WitnessTwoSurname ARMSTRONG

Chris :)