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Thos Grinnell 1829 - 1889 married Jane Roberts b c1836 - 1879 in 1862, Cheltenham. The marriage cert gives her name as Jane Roberts (spinster) daughter of Wm Roberts. However Gloucestershire BMD gives her former names as both Forty and Grinnell on the birth records of her children Esther Susan 1863, Louisa 1866, Jane 1867, Elizabeth 1868, Fredk 1870 and Thos 1872. She also had an illegitimate child, Charles A Forty b 1852. Did she just lie on her marriage certificate? I've traced her possible birth to Jane Forty 1836 , daughter of Wm Fortey and Harriet Lawrence b St Giles Finsbury/Bloomsbury, London. Can anyone fathom out where Roberts comes in please. (A Jane Forty married Richard Roberts Cheltenham 1858 - but why would it then say spinster on her later marriage to Thos Grinnell) :-S

Just posting 1871 to work from:

GRINNELL, Thomas Head M 45 1826 Gloucestershire - Inn keeper
GRINNELL, Jane Wife F 35 1836 Middlesex b London
FORTY, Charles Love Child M 19 1852 Gloucestershire - labourer
GRINNELL, Hester Daughter F 8 1863 Gloucestershire
GRINNELL, Louisa Daughter F 5 1866 Gloucestershire
GRINNELL, Jane Daughter F 4 1867 Gloucestershire
GRINNELL, Elizth Daughter F 3 1868 Gloucestershire
GRINNELL, Fredk Son M 0 1871 Gloucestershire

Piece: 2666 Folio: 82 Page: 24
Registration District: Cheltenham
Civil Parish: Cheltenham
Municipal Borough: Cheltenham

Address: Rutland Street, Cheltenham County: Gloucestershire

All born Cheltenham except Jane.

Love the way Charles' relationship is defined! It implies that Thomas might be his father.

could she also be this one??

1841 census

Name: Jane Forty
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Female
Where born: Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Cheltenham
Hundred: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

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Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 353
Book: 8
Folio: 46
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
William Forty 35
Henry Forty 8
June Forty 35
Mary Forty 13
Jane Forty 10
Ellen Forty 5

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 353; Book: 8; Civil Parish: Cheltenham; County: Gloucestershire; Enumeration District: 18; Folio: 46; Page: 25; Line: 5; GSU roll: 288767.

Maybe she married a Roberts at some point??

This entry has gone astray I think:

Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
Roberts Richard Cheltenham 6a 6[2_]4

Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
Forty Jane Cheltenham 6a 624
Leonard Joseph Cheltenham 6a 624
Matthews Martha Cheltenham 6a 624

Jan

the same Jane in 1851

her son was born in gloustershire

1851 England Census about Jane Forty
Name: Jane Forty
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Forty
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

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Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1p
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 196
Piece: 1973
Folio: 463
Page Number: 44
Household Members:
Name Age
William Forty 47 occ carpenter
Jane Forty 21
Henry Forty 19
Frederick Wm Forty 8
Albert Forty 7
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1973; Folio: 463; Page: 44; GSU roll: 87373-87374.

Was looking to see if there were any marriage details in the papers, found this instead:

GLOUCESTER CITIZEN - Thursday 4 May 1882
Thomas Grinnell was summoned for opening his house the Pilgrim Inn, Rutland Street for the sale of intoxicating liquor during prohibited hours. 9 people were seen going in and out between 7 and 8 on a Sunday morning.
He pleaded guilty, said sorry and was fined £2 with 10s costs.

also, in 1881 his beer-house license was temporarily transferred to a Henry Wintle.

In 1884 he was selling 12 pairs of good pigeons, cheap.

Not sure, but if this is the Richard marrying above this might account for your findings, though if so, not sure why she didn't say she was a widow:

Deaths Dec 1858 (>99%)
Roberts Richard Cheltenham 6a 280

Jan

Census records indicate that Jane was born in London not Cheltenham. I'm assuming that she was shipped off to relatives in Cheltenham to give birth to Charles. The marriage to Richard Roberts is feasible. He appears to be a lot older than Jane however, and why would she give her father's name as Wm Roberts?

Jane and Charles I suspect:

1861 England Census

Name: Jane Robarts (WIDOW)
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Gloucestershire

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham

Jane Robarts 27
Charles Roberts 9

Various Grinnells were pub landlords in the rougher part of Cheltenham and were not strangers to encounters with the law!

Ooo I'd missed that one with Jane, widow and Charles, son. Thanks.

So any theories on why Charles reverted to the surname Forty and Jane claimed to be a spinster and her father Wm Roberts?

The Gloucester Citizen of 23 August 1881 carries an article about how Thomas' wife Agnes (who he'd been married to for 17 months at the time) had threatened to murder his daughter Esther. The incident happened in their tap-room the Pilgrim Inn.
Agnes had been out and was drunk and threatened to kill Esther wife a knife she had. Apparently, they frequently locked her out (can't say I blame them!)

Agnes was bound over to keep the peace with two sureties of £10

God knows! It really must be them 1861. I cannot begin to think why she gave her father's name as Roberts - it would work more if her son also dept the Roberts name wouldn't it, or alternatively if she too reverted to her maiden name.
Very strange!
Maybe she murdered Richard in his bed!!

ADDED funny co-incidence, I cross-posted and hadn't seen the murder ref. above!

Jan

In October 1881 there was an attempted prosecution of Thos Grinnell (55) of the Pilgrim Inn for making his wife and child chargeable to the workhouse. It's a long article so basically he'd kicked her out for always being drunk so she was before the workhouse board. No charges were brought against Thomas as he had already offered to pay for her upkeep there, he just didn't want her in his house.

The wife was un-named but guess it must have been Agnes.

Margaret - what was William Roberts occupation given as on the marriage certificate?

Who were the witnesses?

Thank you everyone. There's plenty to work on now. :-)

Yes Wm Roberts was a carpenter so that fits. Witnesses Betear Grinnell and John Grinnell...sorry keep forgetting to press submit.

Just a passing thought - perhaps Jane was a bigamist? (It wasn't unusual back then).

If she was known as Jane Roberts then when she married Thomas then she'd have to say her father's surname was Roberts too or else there would be awkward questions to answer.

Perhaps the truth came out later hence both previous names being on birth certificates.

Although it says "widow" on that possible 1861 women sometimes did describe themselves as such rather than say they's been deserted.

It is funny you should mention Agnes because she was born Agnes Golding and married John Regan in 1874 but was widowed a year later - wonder if he was knifed!! Agnes was 28 years younger than Thomas Grinnell.