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Thank you.

Yes it is the correct Richard Roberts, and yes he was on the old side. We are speculating about what the attraction was and if there was some sort of motive behind the marriage. One thought is that this marriage may not have been consummated before he died 3 months later and therefore she considered herself still a spinster....but she kept his surname....maybe there was a reason why she needed to hide her former name. :-S

I had a look at http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
ROBERTS Richard FORTY Jane Cheltenham Cheltenham Register Office 1858 8 47
GRINNELL Thomas ROBERTS Jane Cheltenham Cheltenham St Mary 1862 10 232

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
FORTY Charles A ----- FORTY ----- 1852 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 28 189
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GRINNELL Esther S GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1863 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 48 86
GRINNELL Esther S GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1863 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 48 86
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GRINNELL Louisa E GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1866 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 54 302
GRINNELL Louisa E GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1866 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 54 302
GRINNELL Louisa S GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1866 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 54 302
GRINNELL Louisa S GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1866 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 54 302
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GRINNELL Jane GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBINSON 1867 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 57 68
GRINNELL Jane GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1867 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 57 68
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GRINNELL Elizabeth GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1868 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 60 258
GRINNELL Elizabeth GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1868 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 60 258
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GRINNELL Frederick GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1870 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 64 202
GRINNELL Frederick GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1870 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 64 202
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GRINNELL Thomas GRINNELL GRINNELL ROBERTS 1872 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 69 83
GRINNELL Thomas GRINNELL GRINNELL FORTY 1872 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 69 83

It's clear this is how GlosBMD transcribes births to ex-widows.
Presumably, the b.cert says the mother is "Jane Grinnell, late Roberts, formerly Forty" or something similar.
Here's a couple of similar b.entries:

GRINNELL Emily Jane GRINNELL GRINNELL PAINTER 1876 Stroud Stroud, Stonehouse 11 456
GRINNELL Emily Jane GRINNELL GRINNELL HARRISON 1876 Stroud Stroud, Stonehouse 11 456
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GRINNELL John GRINNELL GRINNELL GOLDING 1881 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 87 341
GRINNELL John GRINNELL GRINNELL REGAN 1881 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 87 341

NB We can see from the Entry # that these index entries all refer to the same cert.
I presume Louisa either has 2 mid-names, or else the transcriber has difficulty reading her mid-name.

Using FreeBMD for more precise dating:
Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
Roberts Richard Cheltenham 6a 6[2_]4

Deaths Dec 1858 (>99%)
Roberts Richard Cheltenham 6a 280

Marriages Dec 1862 (>99%)
Roberts Jane Cheltenham 6a 770

I can only see the one above death in the Cheltenham area, and he's a bit on the old side

Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry
ROBERTS Richard 53 1858 Cheltenham, Cheltenham 30 170


No idea why she's a spinster in 1862 - there's no shame in being a widow.
Maybe the minister just assumed she was, and they were both to shy to correct him.

Thank you Marie. It could be worth it as this side of the family seem to make the newspapers with amazing regularity! I also have ancestors in Lancs so that is useful too.
:-)

Margaret, the newspaper reports are on the British Newspaper Archives on-line, you can take a two day sub for £6.95 (I had a full sub but it's now included on Findmypast records).

You can also search the archives here on Genes - see under Search on the menu above. It costs 5 credits to view an article.

Lancashire libraries have 19th century newspaper archives and it's free. You have to join the library online (anyone in UK can) and then you can access the papers.
http://www3.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/atoz/a_to_z/service.asp?u_id=761&tab=1

Sorry, my error, she wasn't already calling herself Roberts on her marriage to Richd - should have read Forty.

How do I get to look at these newspaper reports? Are they online or do I have to travel to Cheltenham?

I haven't yet found a likely birth/baptism or first marriage for Richard Roberts or where he was prior to his marriage to Jane.

Well, the 1861 census on previous page is definitely your Jane as the Heritage couple were next door.
Not that it helps much!
Jan

It's odd that when they married Jane was already calling herself Roberts?

Perhaps the attraction was an insurance policy on an older bloke not in the best of health! I reckon the Heritages were in on it, too.

According to the newspapers Richard was 53 when he died!

I sent for the marriage certificate of Jane Forty & Richd Roberts plus his death cert.

6 Jul 1858 Cheltenham Registry Office
Richd Roberts 50 years, widower, coachsmith journeyman
Jane Roberts 25 years, spinster
both of 4 Sherborne Cottages, Cheltenham
Fathers - John Roberts (deceased), Whitesmith
Wm Forty, carpenter
Witnesses Samuel & Joanna Heritage (Next door neighbours)

Richd Roberts - Death - 3 months later on Oct 2nd 1858
at 4 Sherborne Cottages
Age 58 ...he's aged somewhat in the 3 months since he married!
Coachsmith/Journeyman
Samuel Heritage present at death
Cause of death - Disease of kidneys & bladder certified.

A huge age difference between Richard & Jane. I wonder what the attraction was!

Ann, it would beat that Downton thing!

I'm pleased it wasn't ducks he was selling - there's enough quackers on here already :-)

I think this should be made into a film!!!! Also there was mention of pigeons going cheap!! - well actually pigeons go "coo coo"!!! :-D :-D

The court reports of the Gloucester Citizen seem a good source of information too!!. A colourful family. Thank you everyone.

I might be tempted to get that marriage cert for Jane Forty in 1858. It's likely her real father's name is on there - assuming it is your Jane of course.
Jan

If Jane's mother was Harriet Fortey nee Lawrence b 1806 Newbury
, she is on census records in London as late as 1881 aged 75. It always states that Harriet is married, yet there is never any sign of her husband on the census. Maybe her husband deserted her and went to live in Cheltenham.

Thomas's parents Samuel & Susan Grinnell were also in trouble with the law on a few occasions. Susan got 9 months in prison in 1861.

It is funny you should mention Agnes because she was born Agnes Golding and married John Regan in 1874 but was widowed a year later - wonder if he was knifed!! Agnes was 28 years younger than Thomas Grinnell.

Just a passing thought - perhaps Jane was a bigamist? (It wasn't unusual back then).

If she was known as Jane Roberts then when she married Thomas then she'd have to say her father's surname was Roberts too or else there would be awkward questions to answer.

Perhaps the truth came out later hence both previous names being on birth certificates.

Although it says "widow" on that possible 1861 women sometimes did describe themselves as such rather than say they's been deserted.

Yes Wm Roberts was a carpenter so that fits. Witnesses Betear Grinnell and John Grinnell...sorry keep forgetting to press submit.

Thank you everyone. There's plenty to work on now. :-)

Margaret - what was William Roberts occupation given as on the marriage certificate?

Who were the witnesses?

In October 1881 there was an attempted prosecution of Thos Grinnell (55) of the Pilgrim Inn for making his wife and child chargeable to the workhouse. It's a long article so basically he'd kicked her out for always being drunk so she was before the workhouse board. No charges were brought against Thomas as he had already offered to pay for her upkeep there, he just didn't want her in his house.

The wife was un-named but guess it must have been Agnes.