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Have had contact from 2 members with Agnes Renfrew s on their trees

Not our branch but very useful to eliminate
And one had information to follow up about potential parents for Janet renfrew

.s grand parents parents

james renfrew from Ary is probably not correct

But Agnes Dunlop who married james RENFREW
Is clearly daughter of james Dunlop and Margaret ...

Am leaving this research for Brigid to do on Scotlands people and rootschat but will post results and add to my tree when confirmed .

I wouldn't have thought James could be substituted for John - but I could be wrong.

Re Renfrew:
in the early Scottish censuses women were often listed under their maiden name, even when living with the husband.

In the 16th century, in England, married women became their husband's "property" in effect - she used his name, and all her property became his. In Scotland and the rest of Europe, she kept her birth surname and also her property.
The custom gradually changed during the 17th and 18th centuries, but in Scotland many women still used their maiden surnames. On the early censuses it can be handy, to know a man's wife's surname.

Even today, on marriage, a woman only "assumes" her husband's surname. It's not compulsory.

I agree argyl gran
She was defined as such on census 1891 and the term was used on her death registration in 1896

I didn't find the births of Duncan or Agnes Renfrew/macdermid between 1820 and 30 despite all variations of spellings
And denominations
Took me ages ..at least I.m getting better at using the site

Used all my credits again so haven't opened either of the possible births for John Mcderm ...SP no longer gives warning about how many credits each use will cost and the are you sure option !!

The original census are very interesting tho ...got to see how close crammed they were to neighbours lots of unmarried women
Or widows in the cotton weaving trade.

Can't find potential death for John either
janet is down using maiden name in 1841 doesn't automatically mean he was dead

John isn't as popular as first name amongst the Mcderm s as some other first names
Is james sometimes substituted??

I don't think "imbecile" at that time had any particular definition. It could mean anything - slight learning difficulty, cerebral palsy - or any one of a huge range of things.
Also the information came from the head of the household, so was very subjective, and probably not backed up by an official diagnosis, as the person had likely never been seen by a doctor, as that was expensive.

I didn't find Agnes birth or baptism under Renfrew either she could have been born before couple married in 1826.

Census ages vary a bit
EDIT.
death has her aged 66 in 1896 but informant not a relative and correct mother listed as janet Renfrew she
Agnes was listed as a pauper and imbecile

In 1891 she was boarding at lesmahagow and classed as imbecile aged 64

Before that she was in Eastwood for all censuses

an unmarried steam loom weaver in 1871 with a boarder

1861with her mother a aged 30.p power loom weaver

I.m not sure what definition of imbecile was.( had she been one all her life ?)
Steam loom worker would surely require some skill

In 1881 she was unmarried cottonweaver aged 54 ...in a shared house
So had abilityto work

Barony:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/LKS/Barony

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/story/?id=TGSBG06

It would have been much of what is now the northern part of Glasgow.

Thanks so much argylgran for your continued patience

I like the birth with father as duncan that's what he named his son but would make him 12 years younger than his wife

Barony is another place which is close to Glasgow isn't it

The first one puts his age closer t his wife ...tho have to wonder why they didn't marry til late 30.'s

I did try fuzzy matching


No help from his daughter agnes macdermid didn't marry

Her 1896 death registration lesmahagow ?

gives father's occupation as soldier not weaver she was a pauper

and her birth wouldn't give his age even if I could find it

No record of any Agnes McDermid (or any other spelling) being born in Glasgow or Lanarkshire 1820-35.

Nor of any McDermid (or other spelling) of any forename, with father John or mother Janet (or any other variation), in Glasgow or Lanarkshire 1820-30.

I haven't found "Name variants" to work at all on the new SP website, although it used to on the old one.

"Phonetic matching" for both surname and forename will bring up results for everyone with that forename, and every surname beginning with the same initial letter of the name you entered, regardless of whether it sounds like the name you wanted or not.

Actually, searching using "Phonetic matching" brings up those two above, and also these:

MCDERMOND

JOHN

FINLAY MCDERMOND/MARGARET MCLAREN FR572 (FR572)

0

10/09/1809

651/

20 471

Airdrie or New Monkland





MCDIARMID

JOHN

JOHN MCDIARMID/JANET MCLEAN FR1985 (FR1985)

0

02/04/1805

644/1

200 254

Glasgow

If you search using "Fuzzy matching" for the surname rather than "Name variants", you get two birth results in Lanarkshire, 1770-1810:

MCDERMAID JOHN
Parents: JOHN MCDERMAID/JANET STEWART
FR707 CHILD 3 (FR707)
Age 0
03/06/1787
Parish No: 622/ Ref: 30 160 Barony



MCDERMIT JOHN
Parents: DUNCAN MCDERMIT/MARY MITCHELL
FR1061 CHILD 1 (FR1061)
Age: 0
01/06/1805 Parish No: 622/40 Ref: 304 Barony

Going Back in time with this family now

Grandfather's grandfather was Duncan McDiarmid b1829 d.1903

He was found on all censuses from 1851 t0 1901

his death cert says his parents were John McDermid weaver
and Janet renfrew

1841 census has 12 yearold Duncan living with his mother janet 50 and 15year old sister agnes in kings st, pollockshaws .all with surname Renfrew

Eastwood census 1851
janet 60 widow keeping house
Agnes 24 is a power loom weaver

both McDarmid born pollockshaws 39 main st

!861 46 main st
sharing house with 3 other ladies
Janet McDiarmid 72 formerly ........cant decipher looks like heddle laster
agnes .. 31 steam loom weaver

marital status looks like both marked as married but same surname

Janet Renfrew.s baptism is on old parish records 1788 parents Alexander renrw weaver and agnes Dunlop

there is a notice of bans in april1826 for John macdermid +Janet renfrew both of Pollokshaws but no information about his parents

Hoping to get more information on John MacD

cant find Agnes birth between 1823 and 1830 under Renfrew or varients of macdermid.

Janet would have been 38 at marriage and 41 at birth of Duncan but no sign of previous marriages or births either

john not on census with them in 1841 but I cant look for births or deaths for him without some clue as to his age or parents names .....

can any of you geniuses come up with where to go from here

ps the SP searches under various spellings say there ARE x number of records for parish births , deaths ,marriages baptisms but when i click on a specific register it says no records ...

was just about to post that

thought i had given the link on the Roots post ...I will double check

sometimes by the time I've replied to one post or checked a fact
other posts have occured

Yes I think thats definite proof that it's the same boy
without seeing actual cert

saved me learning how to work the irish site

I hadn't seen that Rootschat thread - thanks Chris.

Pity you hadn't given them the link to your GR thread, Brigid - might have saved all those people a lot of searching!

However, good to see that IsobelW on Rootschat has proved that the Belfast birth is the correct one.
Copying her post for the benefit of people here on GR:



Re: 1905 approx birth Duncan macdermid\ robson
« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:17 »
Had a couple of credits on NIDirect so had a look at the Enhanced View ( one credit = 50p) and it confirms parents as Celia McDermond m/s Robson and Duncan McDermond. It will cost you £2.50 ( 5 credits) to view the actual certificate.
Isobel

A G is amazing
As are you Chris

The belfast birth search is on groni not gen I.
sorry I think my spell check kicked in

I don't think I can afford to open an Irish search site too especially as I don't have Irish relatives

This would be a one off search

I.ll cut and paste any info that comes up on the roots chat link too

11 May 1883 - Newcastle Courant - Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Tyne and

Death
GOSFORTH, Haddrick's Mill, on the 9th inst., aged 54, Thomas Robson.

Deaths Jun 1883 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
ROBSON Thomas 54 Castle W. 10b 161

Chris :)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748614.0

(in case AG doesn't see above, from google, I think she has done very well!)

Well, if Duncan jr was born in Ireland, and was 6 in 1911, then I should think the Belfast birth is his. It's too much of a coincidence otherwise:


Duncan M'Dermoid
Ireland Civil Registration Indexes

Name Duncan M'Dermoid
Event Type Birth
Event Date Apr - Jun 1905
Event Place Belfast, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Apr - Jun 1905
Registration District Belfast
Volume Number 1
Page Number 302

You mentioned
" the Geni record ;; is DURCAN McDORMOND mothers name Rielson ."

I can't get that to appear, but I would imagine all the names are badly mistranscribed, and that Reilson is supposed to be Robson.



If Celia and Duncan senior did actually marry, perhaps they did so in Ireland.
Unfortunately, records are patchy. and may not have survived.

on the 1911 census it does say Duncan was born in ireland

on his sisters birth cert 1909 their mother is unmarried but duncan sn is present to register birth and they give birth as as his parents house 92 river road

Mary agnes was registered as Macdermid

but maybe Duncan was born as Robson tho ; i'll just check previous searches ;I ruled out The MacDiarmid spellings as thats a more distant spelling

Unfortunately There was a Duncan patriarch so eldest sons or 3rd sons frequently named after their gfathers or father + most were long living so turn up on several censuses and valuation rolls in lanark .need a map to see proximity of . hutchesown

duncan sn 's death address was coventry road dennistoun

But there's no sign of a marriage between Celia and Duncan senior, in Scotland or England.

By manipulating the search, I can see that Duncan's stated to be 6 years old in 1911 census.

So born c1905 - so maybe the Belfast one is correct after all.

But more likely are these two possibilities:

1905 MACDIARMID DUNCAN M PARTICK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/03 1920

1905 MACDIARMID DUNCAN M HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 2218