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as she gave her maiden name on the registrations of both children in both names as Sweetman that should mean she was born Ellen Sweetman. Even if she had married as Ellen sweetman to a Joe Smith (eg) before Osbaldeston the maiden name would be Sweetman on all births

That sounds a bit convoluted but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Jax - you could probably explain better

note "1912 to 1913 in Derby" - Derby & West Derby are 2 very different places

Even if you purchase this birth cert? if you know nothing about her how are you going to say if it is the right one or not?

I also thought of that.

My grandmother had her children in her 30's. It hard to imagine that she had her first children so late. People in 1930s got married very early.

She used to go to the church all lot .

She used to go to seounce. my mother thinks maybe she was trying to connact her husband who might have died in the war.

WW1? How sad if you are right. I have two female rellies whose young hubands died in WW1. One was pregnant with his daughter and he never knew. Sadly the little girl died aged 2 of scarlet fever.

I must not be following this properly.

I see from the entries on freebmd that both your mother and uncle's births have mother's maiden name as Sweetman

If Ellen had been MRS Sweetman then the name on your mother's (and uncles's) birth certificate would be Sweetman formerly somethingelse.
As she has given her maiden name as Sweetman then no point looking for a marriage to Mr Sweetman..


EDIT :
Sorry LancashireAnn, I seem to have just repeated the same thought process. ( I hadn't turned over to page 2 )
.

It would be WW2 madmeg.

If her maiden name is Sweetman on the childrens birth certs then I would think she had not been married before unless it was mentioned.

There is also the chance that Sweetman was a stepfathers name?

The 2nd War.

If I cant find her date of birth, then Me and mother are thinking of tracing her through the NHS 1939 Idenity Card.

The birth in 1914 Manchester could belong to the Ellen Rosenberg death I posted who was born 6th July but without seeing the birth cert you will not know

maybe.

Thats think I need to order a few certificate to narrow the search.

I believe the NHS 1939 Identity Card did not give much information


someone was asking that a few days ago (????, you???) .............. and they were told it was name, address, and that was basically it.

What I was thinking as I did mention...If Ellen was born at the begining of WW1 her father may have been killed her mother then remarried and she took his name?
I think it will be very difficult to trace her without any facts

Did she not have siblings that your mother knew of? or were her parents ever mentioned or visited?

I read they would give a date of birth from NHS 1939 card.

Its very expensive. Its £42. In Scotland its £13.

my grandmother lived at 2 addresses. One with Harold at Ashton Underlyne and the 2nd one in Oldam.

I would think those addresses would help us to find information about her such us the date of birth with using the NHS 1939.

A man came one day to visit ellen and give my mother some prsents. Her mother wasnt well off. She did get money from Harold but proable was not enough.

maybe my grandmother sent a letter to say that she doesnt have any presents for her children.

My mother thinks it could have been her brother, because he looked a bit like her.

If she was not with Harold when she died who registered her death?

Maybe there will be a clue there?

but don't forget that the informant on a death certificate only knows what the deceased person has told them


NO documents have to be produced to prove age, name, etc etc



The ONLY information that you can be certain are true on a death certificate, are .........

date and place of death
cause of death
name of doctor or coroner
name and address of informant


EVERYTHING else is hearsay



sylvia

The family allowence book would be in the surname of SWEETMAN,,,,,,because lawfully Ellen was not married to Harold.......

both OSBALDENSTON children born in the 1940s,,,,,,are registered under both surnames ,

SWEETMAN and OSBALDENSTON.........

OSBALDENSTON---mothers maiden name---Sweetman.

SWEETMAN--mothers maiden name----SWEETMAN....

that amounts to children born to parents that at that time was not married but it was agreed that the children were lawfully given the surname of their father.


North....Ellen was a single lady and never married Harold,,,,,,,,nor a Mr Sweetman.

Harold was a married man as you say, but then divorce was not as easy as now,plus the cost was often outside of what an ordinary working man with a family could afford,also if Harolds wife wouldnt agree it was a 7 yera wait till any application could be made to get one,unless in the meantime one spouse died,then they were free to marry.

so work it out..Ellen died 1957,so could have never put in for a divorce or had the money to...Ellen was commonly known a Osbaldenston as used on her death registration.

It wasn't easy to divorice like now. He couldn't marry ellen as he was still married to his wife. She left him.

I'm joining a Trace Your family history course for searching online .

I took one where we didnt do anything on pc. The teacher just explaining each records, birth,death, marriage, cencus,parish records and many other certificates. Very imformative class.

Its the same teacher who is going to run the course with searching online.

I am pleased you are going to take up this course, I am sure it will be helpful in the future. I dont know what you expect to gain from it in this particular case?

It seems that everything I have posted has been ignored so I wish you luck

If he says what you have told me, then you are right.

slap in the face there then


our findings are not to be trusted!

I just typed ellen sweetman in Lancashire, born in 1914.
in birth records and found the death record that matches the 1994.

I used Ancestry.