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Aw if they all died young then that would perhaps make sense as to why the family thought there was only two daughters.

Can anyone see that actual marriage details of Mary just to see if it does have father's name as Jack.

Thanks for all your help.

Those marriage records wont be online .you would need to buy the cert for the deatils

London parish records go up to c 1921 from the LMA

Just had another look at Jack Boswell's Army record - there is another page before the first one that comes up (ie paging backwards through the images.)

It confirms his marriage to Rosetta Smith, spinster on 22nd Feb 1915 and also has the birth of a son, Jack on 9th Apr 1915 at Mile End - so Rosetta must have been pregnant when she married and it looks as if the Jack Boswell birth posted above should be the one but the MMN is wrong.

The Army record does say the marriage and birth have been verified by certificates so why wasn't the different surname for Rosetta picked up by them?

Jack was only in the Army from 31st May 1915 until 28th June 1915 so there are no details of any other children.

Oh of course Shirley sorry I forgot.

Potty umm the plot thickens, something is certainly going on with all these wrong maiden names especially as you say the army confirmed them!

Thanks again to both of you.

Good afternoon all,

I finally have the correct birth certificate for Lily Jenny BOSWELL which states by column:-

Mile End Old Town, Mile End Old Town 1919 Eastern, County of London.

15th February 1919 at 45 Sceptre Street / Lily Jenny / Girl / Jack BOSWELL / Rosetta BOSWELL formerly WHITLEY / Contractor's Carman / R Boswell Mother 45 Sceptre Street / Fourth April 1919.

Now I am sure Rosetta WHITLEY is the same person as Rosetta SMITH as there are coincidences such as:-
1. Address of birth is the same as John BOSWELL's address at time of marriage.
2. When Lily Jenny BOSWELL married in 1938 her address was the same as Rosetta's SMITH's when she married in 1915.

BUT where does the WHITLEY come from and how do I move on from here?
Also I still have not found her sister under BOSWELL, WHITLEY or SMITH.

Advice please folks.
Thanks

Hi Kim,

Have read and re-read this thread and searched and searched!

The only thing I can find is a Rosetta Boswell in the London Electoral Rolls living in Tower Hamlets from 1918 to 1958. I can't view the records with my sub.

The only thing I can think of would be to get the Mary J Boswell/Butcher marriage cert. That might at least confirm whether she is Lily's sister. If it does, then her birth cert might help.

Could Rosetta have been married before and lied about her surname when she married Jack? The fact that there was a Rosetta Boswell born before that marriage is a little odd.

On the Electoral roll images for 1945 there is a Rosetta BOSWELL living at 115 Globe Road.
Also at that address are William CELISSE, Gertrude CELISSE and Lilian J.THOMPSON.


Happy to look for other years if you need them.

Gwyn

It is all very strange isn't it!!

I have also searched and search. I cannot find a SMITH to WHITLEY marriage thinking she may of been married previously even though on marriage she stated herself as spinster.

I have her death in 1960 which gives year of birth as 1882, marriage gives it as 1889. On her marriage it gives father's name as Richard SMITH a carman but I cannot find her on any census with Richard as father.

I have seen the Electorial Registers and they confirm that this Rosetta is the same person:-
1918 - 1921 living at 45 Sceptre Street as per marriage and daughter's birth
1922 - 1933 living at 24 Sceptre Street
1945 - 1947 living at 115 Globe Road with daughter Lily and her husband Sidney THOMPSON
1949 - 1958 living at 46 Aston Street again with daughter Lily & son in law Sidney and the home that my husband's family still own today.

It all fits from that point of view but where does the WHITLEY and FULLER names fit in.

I am going to order the birth of the only Mary J Boswell with mother's maiden name FULLER and see what that offers.

Thanks Gwyn I didn't see your post until after posted.

As above I have access to the records thanks.

If he joined the Army 1915---you can maybe obtain his service record online-- Medals awarded etc:

Thanks Bob unfortunately he only served for 2 months and I have the details from Ancestry for that time which shows he has a wife named Rosetta BOSWELL and one son. No other clues.

Kim, is Jack with Rosetta on any of the Electoral Rolls? If not, I wonder where he is? I can't see him there and yet he seems to have been at Lily's marriage.

I am beginning to think that Whitley is a bit of a red herring!

Let us know what Mary Jane's birth cert says.

Hi Potty

Yes I have Jack on the electoral registers from

1918 to 1921 at 45 Sceptre Street
1922 to 1934 at 24 Sceptre Street
1934 to 1938 at 61 Sceptre Street after this Rosetta is alone or with her daughter Lily and son in law Si(y)dney THOMPSON

Some of them he is listed as Jack and some John while Rosetta was listed as both Rosetta and Rose.

I have Rosetta's death in 1960 previously posted which fits with the electoral registers.

I cannot locate Jack after 1938 and the only death's that fits with date of birth as 1892 is:-
1941 Eastbourne, Sussex
there is one other death but the actual date of birth is not correct although I know this could still be a possibility
1969 Coventry, Warwickshire.

Just to offer my 2 pennyworth.
Boswell & Smith are both traveller (gypsy) surnames. This could possibly account for lack of marriage info as travellers often conducted their own marriage ceremonies rather than official ones.
The name Jinny can be a pet name for Jane (? Mary Jane)

Thanks Wisechild. I do have the marriage it is the inconsistency in surname that is causing the problem.

********************************************************************************

As for Jinny/Jenny which was found as Mary Jane Boswell born 1922 from death registration and although with a different mother's maiden name I have now found Jack Boswell's sister also called Mary Jane as:-

Birth Mary Jane
Marriage Jennie
Death Mary Jane
Census both Mary Jane and Jennie differs over years

This tells me that I am possibly looking at the right Mary Jane BOSWELL born 1922, will just have to wait for cert to arrive to see if it sheds any light on the different surname.

Hi Kim

Don't know if you've seen this census from 1881 - age is a bit out but if you take Rossettas age at death it’s quite close - she may have lied about her age because she was older than her husband

3 Cottage Place, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Borough of Southwark
Richard Smith 32
Frances Smith 34
Edward Smith 12
Benjamin Smith 5
Harry Smith 3
Rosetta Smith 1

Richard is described as a Mariner

Richard, Frances, and Edward are born in Greenwich, Benjamin in Surrey Borough and Harry and Rossetta in Southwark


regards

Ruth

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Ok I finally have Mary Jane's birth certificate which reads from left to right:-

1st April 1922 24 Sceptre Street / Mary Jane / Girl / Jack BOSWELL / Rosetta BOSWELL late WHEATLEY formerly FULLER / Contractor's Carman / R BOSWELL Mother 24 Sceptre Street / 5th May 1922.

So there you have it!!

Firstly am I right in that 'late' means either widowed or divorced from and then the 'formerly' would mean maiden name??

Secondly I am guessing that the WHEATLEY on this cert is possibly the same as the WHITLEY on Lily's birth certificate and that FULLER was missed off of Lily's being's as all the other children had FULLER as mother's maiden name and given that mother's first name is Rosetta.

Thirdly still don't know where SMITH comes from unless Rosetta used that name as she was already married to Mr WHEATLEY/WHITLEY.

I cannot actually find a Rosetta, Rose or even Rosa FULLER marrying a Mr WHEATLEY/WHITLEY. All I can find is a marriage for a Rose FULLER to a Albert Victor WHITNEY in 1901, St Olave, Southwark but this marriage is linked to an Ancestry tree that shows they had 4 children.

I had found a baptism for a Rosetta FULLER born 30th August 1881 St George's In The East, Tower Hamlets. Father's name Richard (same as given on the Rosetta SMITH Marriage and this year also matches with the age given at time of marriage) BUT this is the Rose that married Albert WHITNEY!!

HELP before I go made lol.

I think this is the Rose who married Albert - she is shown as a widow. The trees on Ancestry have Albert as dying in 1925.

1911 England Census
about Ernest Whitney
Name: Ernest Whitney
Age in 1911: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1909
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Civil parish: St George in the East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 32 Prusom Street, Prusom St, Old Gravel Lane, London East
Registration district: St George in the East
Registration District Number: 19
Sub-registration district: St George and St John
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Piece: 01527
Household Members: Name Age
Rose Whitney 29
Ernest Whitney 2

Looks like she lied - Albert seems to still be alive:

1911 England Census
about Joseph Whitney
Name: Joseph Whitney
Age in 1911: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1901
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bermondsey London
Civil parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Fulford Street, Rotherhithe, S E
Occupation: SCHOOL
Registration district: St Olave (Bermondsey)
Registration District Number: 24
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe
ED, institution, or vessel: 02
Piece: 01915
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Victor Whitney 28
Albert William Whitney 8
Joseph Whitney 10

Just nudging to see if anyone else has any other views or answers to my UPDATE above