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Hi Wayne

Had a good look at certs---It looks as if Eliza's father was named ROBERT---

I wondered why I couldn't find your great grandfathers death---could this be the reason ?

Casualty Details
Name: SWANN, ERNEST
Initials: E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 43
Date of Death: 09/05/1915
Service No: 20116
Additional information: Husband of Eliza Ann Swann, of 76, Alfreton Rd., Sutton-in-Ashfield, Notts.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 7.
Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

(click on the "certificate" button on the bottom of this, to see the "In Memory " certificate, which you could print off.)

link to this

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=869021

Barbara x

Another link ?

http://www.oldnotts.co.uk/sutton/memorial/ww1/swann_e.htm

Do you think it is your G Grandfather ?

Barbara x

Hi, yes that's him. I think it is mentioned earlier on in this thread

Wayne,

one thing I have noticed is that you do not mention whether you have Albert's marriage cert. Does that give his father's name as Ernest?

I ask because I followed what I thought was my grandmother through the census but when I bought her marriage cert, the father's name was different to the one I had followed. I had been following her cousin who had the same Christian name and was born only a year earlier.

Hi Potty,
no I haven't got Albert's marriage certificate. That would actually be interesting to see. I'll ask my mother if she has it or if her sister or brother has it.

Thanks

Wayne

Ok Wayne, I will take the "bull by the horns" and see what you think of this theory ----maybe totaly wrong, but worth a try.

I can't see Ernest Swann before his marriage, anywhere in Notts. So was he really born in nots ???

In 1881 there is this family-it is exactley as it written on the familysearch site

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Robert SWANN Head M Male 57 Benefield, Northampton, England Railway Laborer
Mary A. SWANN Wife M Female 57 Sudboro, Northampton, England
Clara SWANN Daur U Female 21 Elton, Huntingdon, England Domestic Serv
Ernest R. SWANN Son U Male 15 Elton, Huntingdon, England Butchers Appr
Grace E. SWANN Daur U Female 12 Luddington, Northampton, England Scholar

>>>>> Earnest SWANN Illegitm Grandson U Male 8 Luddington, Northampton, England Scholar
Ada M. SWANN Illegitm Granddaur Female 5 Warmington, Northampton, England Scholar
Lizzie SWANN Illegitm Grand Daur Female 1 Warmington, Northampton, England


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Source Information:
Census Place Warmington, Northampton, England
Family History Library Film 1341381
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1588 / 50
Page Number 5
=======================================================


In 1891 I think this is the above Ernest now in Derbyshire

1891 England Census 1891 England Census
Name: Ernest Swann
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Luddington, Hampshire, England

Civil parish: St Werburgh
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Derby
Sub-registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2729
Folio: 86
Page Number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Slack 35
Marianne Slack 35
William Slack 5
Ernest Swann 18
Agnes Bolsover 17


Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2729; Folio 86; Page 59; GSU roll: 6097839.


Link to the image

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=DBYRG12_2728_2730-0461&fn=Samuel&ln=Slack&st=r&ssrc=&pid=3524077

=====================================================


Marriage of Samuel and Marianne (she was a SWANN )

Marriages Mar 1882 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BARRATT Sarah Annie Burton 6b 420
Heath Thomas Burton 6b 420
>>>>>>SLACK Samuel Burton 6b 420
>>>>>>>SWANN Marianne Burton 6b 420


I will delete if you think its a load of rubbish---as everything else points to him being born in Notts. !!!!

Barbara x

Ive been lookung at the 1881 census that "Ann of Green Gables " put on page 1 of your posting

1881 Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Henry SWANN Head M Male 52 Quorndon, Leicester, England Stocking Weaver
Martha SWANN Wife M Female 50 Nottingham, England Lace Clipper
Albert SWANN Son U Male 15 Nottingham, England Printers Assistant
Eliza SWANN Daur U Female 12 Nottingham, England Box Hand (P)

>>>> Earnest SWANN Son U Male 7 Nottingham, England Scholar

Harry PRESLEY Visitor M Male 20 Derby, England Turner (E)
Lavinia PRESLEY Visitor M Female 20 Nottingham, England Box Hand (P)
John PRIESTLEY (PRESLEY) Son (Visitor) Male 1 Nottingham, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 13 Lennox Street
Census Place Nottingham St Mary, Nottingham, England
Family History Library Film 1341803
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3360 / 81
Page Number 25
========================================================

Thid looks like the birth index for this Ernest

Births Mar 1874

Swann Ernest Nottingham 7b 313

=====================================================

I couldnt find the family in 1871 until i came across this !!!

1871 England Census
about Henry Carter Name: Henry Carter
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Martha Carter
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish: St Mary
Town: Nottingham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration district: Nottingham
Sub-registration district: Byron
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 148
Piece: 3520
Folio: 55
Page Number: 23
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Carter 42
Martha Carter 42
Henry Carter 18
Sarah Carter 16
>>Levinia Carter 11
>>Albert Carter 5
>>Eliza Carter 2

1861 they are Carter but 1851 i found Martha and Henry as Swann ?????????

(Lavinia married as Swann )


Barbara x

It's getting more and more confusing isn't it?

I came across the 7B 313 birth entry for Ernest in Nottingham a couple of hours after you after checking the 1911 Census again. The 1911 census was filled in by the head of the household themselves and it struck me that he was quite detailed about the birth locations of the rest of the family, i.e. Winsick, Hasland Derbyshire for his wife and Huthwaite and Sutton in Ashfield for the kids. He wrote Nottingham for his place of birth, not Notts so I think the 7B313 record is probably his birth record. I'm tempted to order it from GRO. Even if it is the wrong one, it will help me eliminate another family by tracking down his parents in the census records. What do you think?

If you know for sure that your grandfathers birth date was 1st October 1906 (does your Mum know this for certain ? ) then I think you have his right birth cert. (father Ernest mother Eliza)

If it were me then yes I would send for Ernests birth cert.

Births Mar 1874

Swann Ernest Nottingham 7b 313

and see what comes back on it.



Barbara x

I would also be tempted to send for Ida's birth cert. to see details on it.

Births Sep 1912

Swann Ida E ----mmn Walters---- Mansfield 7b 243



==============================
This looks like little Arthur, bless him,

Births Dec 1914 (>99%)

Swann Arthur Walters Mansfield 7b 234

======================
Deaths Dec 1915 (>99%

Swann Arthur 1 Mansfield 7b 112

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry I didn't find this when I found his birth on page 1.of your post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now this is rather strange, don't you think

( maybe something to do with the Carter / Swann in the census ? )

Deaths Sep 1889 (>99%)

Carter Henry Swann 62 Nottingham 7b 187
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing, Wayne, the Elizabeth Cotton (wittness on the marriage cert) was living in Lennox Street in 1881 and 1891 census and then Cherry Place in 1901--so living very close to Ernest in 1881 !!

Barbara x

I've just been to see my mum and I've tried to quiz her again about her dad's side of the family but she knows very little for some reason, probably because if Ernest is the one killed in WW1 then her dad would have only been about 9 when he died and so wouldn't have really talked about it later.

The thing I find a little strange though is that she can't remember her grandma and I'm wondering if the death date I have of 1964 is correct. That's the same year my mum got married at the age of 21 so you would have thought that she would have known her, but apparently not. Maybe she remarried.

Pretty certain that the birth date is correct for my grandad. She also remembers the names of all the brothers and sisters, including Ida and she knew who she married (Nathan Clarke) and confirmed one of the kids was called Alma. Funnily enough she never heard the name Arthur and based on your information above, I now know why.

Still trying to get my head around your Carter finding. I'll comment on that when I think I've figured it out.

Thanks for all your help on this - glad I'm not paying you by the hour.

Wayne

Also, the discrepancy between the address for the Swann family in the 1911 census and the one mentioned on the war graves website was bugging me. The census says they lived at 70 Alfreton Road, whereas, as well as Eliza's middle name being slightly wrong (Ann instead of Hannah), the wargraves website says they lived at 76 Alfreton Road. They could have moved house after the 1911 census I suppose, but there was a Swain family living at 76 but none of the names match the Swann's so that in my mind adds slightly more evidence to Ernest Swann being the one killed in Belgium in 1915.

I thought this may have been G / Grandmothers death index ?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Eliza A Swann

Name: Eliza A Swann
Birth Date: abt 1873
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1935
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 104

Barbara x

Oh - not sure how I made that mistake. The death record you found is much closer date of birth wise.

I have done as you suggested and sent for Ernest's and Ida's birth certificate. I'll let you know what is revealed.

Wayne

I can't see an actual number on the 1911 census. it just seems to say Alfreton Road

However have you seen this --it is the front page Schedule and mentions Woodhouse Yard and then its crossed out.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=2352&path=Nottinghamshire.Sutton+in+Ashfield.ALL.13.55

Barbara x

Hi, no I hadn't seen that. With regard to the door number, if you go to the original image of the 1911 census on Genes Reunited there is a button to click which takes you to the Enumerators Summary. On there you can see the door numbers and it shows the Swanns living at number 70 with two families of Swains on the same road, one of which is living at 76.

W

Hi
Yes I see what you mean about door numbers now, they may have just moved a few houses.

I am just wondering why he has put Eliza Hannah , and not Eliza Ann !!! (I still have "feeling" the marriage is the right one---even if the names are spelt wrong )

I have been seaching for Ernests Army records, but they must be one of the lots that were destroyed in WW11, i can't see them at all. which is a shame as plenty of "clues" can usually be found in them. :-(

Barbara x

Meant to ask, did you ask about Alberts marriage cert (as Potty advised) To make sure his father was down as Ernest. ?

Barbara x

I did ask about the marriage certificate and my mum doesn't have it. She's going to contact her sister and her brother to see if they do.

I asked her tonight if she knew for sure that her grandfather's name was Ernest, but she didn't know for sure. However, she did confirm all the brothers and sisters of her dad except for Arthur - and we now suspect why she didn't know about him as he died an infant. So that points to the 1911 census document being the right one.

Can't wait for those documents to arrive I ordered.

I've been following up on other Swann families in Nottingham and came across a tenuous but interesting link / coincidence.

Henry Albert Swann b1842 in Nottingham had 5 kids, Frederick, Gertrude, Ernest, Julia and Walter. Frederick and Walter were both born in Nottingham, but the other three were born in Duddeston, Aston, Birmingham.

Albert Swann, my mum's dad married Edith Brailsford in 1935. Edith's mum, Beatrice Hazeldine, who is a bit of an enigma in her own right was born in Duddeston, Aston, Birmingham. (by the way, Ernest, is not our Ernest, he went on to marry Elizabeth Cullen and had 5 kids of his own in Nottingham and their names are all wrong). But I'm thinking this branch of the family and my branch knew each other in Birmingham somehow which is how Albert and Edith came to meet.