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Hi Barry,

Think we've come to the same conclusion about Letitia Jnr. Emily may have added Judge to her name for her daughters sake and to save face?? It would be interesting to see the marriage certificate for 1893 and see who she puts as her father???

I did have a look regarding Stephen Judge but I couldn't see anything.

Dee x

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
about Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn
Name: Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn
Probate Date: 14 May 1936
Death Date: 22 Jan 1936
Death Place: Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, England
Registry: Peterborough

(or Annie Letitia Shaw, Cambridge, spinster. probate to Stephen Henry Judge Effects £3414 0s 8d)

Baz and Dee, adding this here in case it relates!, the above person was also a witness I see (on FMP parish marriages, Cambs) at the wedding of Bertha Annie Elizabeth Judge in 1894, she turns up on the 1901 census with the family in Chelmsford, other than that she is in Cambridge on other census. Please ignore if no good, just thought I'd add, lol)

Chris :)


1901

JUDGE, Thomas W Head Married M 49 1852 Inn Keeper
United States a Br Subj
JUDGE, Emily Wife Married F 38 1863
Dudley
Worcestershire
JUDGE, Thomas W Son Single M 24 1877 Barman
London
JUDGE, John A Son Single M 22 1879 Barman
Deal
Kent
JUDGE, Letitia Daughter Single F 15 1886
United States a Br Subj
JUDGE, Cecil S Son M 10 1891
Cambridge
JUDGE, Frank H Son M 6 1895
Cambridge
JUDGE, Annie Daughter F 4 1897
Cambridge
JUDGE, Ellener E Daughter F 2 1899
Chelmsford
Essex
JUDGE, Clara E Daughter F 0 (8 MOS) 1901
Chelmsford
Essex
SHAW, Annie T Sister Single F 32 1869 (should be L)
Dudley
Worcestershire
SEWELL, Annie Servant Single F 20 1881 General Servant Domestic
Bishops Stortford
Hertfordshire
MILLER, Emily Servant Single F 16 1885 General Servant Domestic
Chelmsford
Essex

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
1671 Folio:
31 Page:
8

Registration District:
Chelmsford Sub District:
Chelmsford Enumeration District:
8 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Chelmsford St Mary's

Civil Parish:
Chelmsford Municipal Borough:
Address:
6, (Market House), Tindal Square, Chelmsford County:
Essex

Hi Chris,

That's great........ this I think is Emily's sister.

Dee x

1871

SHAW, Charles Head M 37 1834 Derbyshire
SHAW, Martha Wife F 36 1835 Cambridgeshire
SHAW, Annie Daughter F 3 1868 Worcestershire

RG number:
RG10 Piece:
1582 Folio:
61 Page:
5

Registration District:
Chesterton Sub District:
Fulbourn Enumeration District:
12 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Chesterton Municipal Borough:
Address:
Milton Road, Chesterton County:
Cambridgeshire

(this is where she starts, then 1881 is with grandmother Martha Shepherd, she stays in the same area, a stones throw from me, lol)

That's really confusing Chris....... what a tangled web these Dunns have weaved, LOL!!!

Name: Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Jan 1868
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT THOMAS,DUDLEY,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 05 Nov 1867
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Isaac Dunn
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Letitia
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04014-8
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 378785
Reference Number:

Oh, perhaps that 1871 isn't the right Annie, lol...


(just adding these below)


Parish Records Collection - burial
First name(s): Thomas William

Last name: JUDGE

Date of burial: 5 Sep 1921

Age at death: 70

Calculated year of birth: 1851

Place of burial: Cambridge

Dedication: St Paul


County: Cambridgeshire Parish Records Collection - burial
First name(s): Bertha

Last name: JUDGE

Date of burial: 25 Nov 1892

Age at death: 37

Calculated year of birth: 1855

Place of burial: Cambridge

Dedication: St Paul

County: Cambridgeshire



Parish Records Collection - burial
Forenames: Annie Letitia

Surname: SHAW

Residence: of 15 Victoria Road

Day: 27

Month: Jan

Year: 1936

Age: 68

Notes:

Parish: Cambridge, St Luke (Chesterton)

County: Cambridgeshire,England

Grave details: Mill Road Cemetery

I think it probably is Chris..... the Shaw couple in 1871 only had 1 child and they were quite a bit older....... makes me think??

So were did Letitia Dunn get her money from to take her family to the USA?? As a widower that was a strong and brave move and she would have needed finanical backing.

Many, many thanks Dee and Chris - I am absolutely amazed that you have sorted this tangled web!
As to the money, I was thinking the same. Various members of this family seem to travel back and forth across the Atlantic. Isaac must have gone back to England after his first wife Mary died as he travelled back to the US in 1908 with new wife Jane.
There is a marriage Isaac Dunn to Florence Clark or Sarah Taylor Jun Q 1908 in Stourbridge 6c 331 - could Sarah be Sarah Jane???
Barry

Chris,
They are the right Shaw's you found in the 1871 census.
Martha's maiden name was Shepherd. So Martha Shepherd was her mother.
Her death Mar Q 1892 Chesterton 3b 390, age 81.
I still don't know the connection between the Shaw's and the Dunn's. I thought Annie might have been adopted but Dee found her baptism in 1868 as Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn.
Barry

Parish Records Collection - marriage
Day: 9

Month: Aug

Year: 1854

Groom forename: Charles

Groom surname: SHAW

Groom's residence: of Ockbrook Derbyshire

Groom's condition: bac

Groom's occupation: goods porter

Groom's age: 20

Groom's father's forename: Thomas

Groom's father's surname:

Groom's father's occupation: glove maker

Bride forename: Martha Birley

Bride surname: SHEPHERD

Bride's residence: of King Street

Bride's condition: sp

Bride's occupation: [blank]

Bride's age: 20

Bride's father's forename: William

Bride's father's surname:

Bride's father's occupation: shoe maker

By Licence:

Place: Cambridge, Holy Trinity

County: Cambridgeshire,England

Witness 1 forename: William Birley

Witness 1 surname: SHEPHERD

Witness 2 forename: Lucy Mills


1851

SHAW, Thomas Head Married M 54 1797 Frame Work Knitter
Derbyshire
SHAW, Ann Wife Married F 49 1802 Silk Winder
Bramcote
Nottinghamshire
SHAW, James Son Unmarried M 24 1827 Frame Work Knitter
Ockbrook
Derbyshire
SHAW, Hannah Daughter Unmarried F 22 1829 Silk Glove Stitcher
Ockbrook
Derbyshire
SHAW, Charles Son Unmarried M 17 1834 Frame Work Knitter
Ockbrook
Derbyshire
SHAW, Alfred Son Unmarried M 13 1838 Frame Work Knitter
Ockbrook
Derbyshire

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
2141 Folio:
384 Page:
19

Registration District:
Shardlow Sub District:
Spondon Enumeration District:
3B Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Ockbrook Municipal Borough:
Address:
Green Lane, Ockbrook County:
Derbyshire

All very strange!, the Annie Letitia that died 1936 Cambridge, was a teacher of music, no nearer to Dunn connection...

Chris :)


1861

SHAW, Charles Head Married M 27 1834 Goods Guard
Ockbrook
Derbyshire
SHAW, Martha Briley Wife Married F 26 1835 Wife To Goods Guard
Cambridge

RG number:
RG09 Piece:
965 Folio:
55 Page:
14

Registration District:
Peterborough Sub District:
2 Peterborough Enumeration District:
5 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Fletton Municipal Borough:
Address:
Daviss Row, Fletton, New Fletton County:
Northamptonshire

Thanks for trying Chris.
Barry

Barry,

I wonder if Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn was unofficially adopted.

We can't find a link to the Shaws and Annie is with the Shaws in 1871, whilst the other Dunn children are with Letitia. Annie is baptised within 2 months of her birth with the Shaw name added and the Shaws seem to have no other children..... Annie later is a teacher of Music whilst her mother is a laundress, so it looks like money was spent on Annie to ensure a good upbringing.

Her birth registration was prior to her baptism and the Shaw name is omitted;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
-------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1867
------------------
DUNN Annie Letitia Dudley 6c 138


Think it's all pointing to a private adoption???

But we know that she has contact with her birth family at least later in life, all very confusing.

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
about Martha Burleigh Shaw
Name: Martha Burleigh Shaw
Probate Date: 5 Oct 1908
Death Date: 20 Sep 1908
Death Place: Cambridgeshire, England
Registry: Peterborough

(of Victoria Road, Probate to Annie Letitia Shaw Dunn. Effects £276 18s 3d)

Just noticed above, Annie's mother...below on 1901 census (Annie then in Chelmsford with Thomas & Co.)

1901

SHAW, Martha Burleigh Head Widow F 66 1835 Laundress
Cambridge
BUFFET, Lizzie Anne Servant Single F 17 1884 Domestic Servant
Weston Colville
Cambridgeshire
JUDGE, Maud Emily Niece Single F 16 1885
Liverpool

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
1524 Folio:
105 Page:
10

Registration District:
Chesterton Sub District:
Fulbourn Enumeration District:
5 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Chesterton St Lukes

Civil Parish:
Chesterton Municipal Borough:
Address:
15, Victoria Road, Chesterton County:
Cambridgeshire

Chris :)

(not seeing Martha and Charles Shaw 1881)...

Oh 'eck Chris.......... looks like there must be a Shaw link.

I gotta go out so will be popping back later and hopefully you'll have solved it for Baz.

I'm soooo pleased my ancestors were quite simple to trace and kept things nice and easy for me, bless them. :-)

Lol Dee, if only...
Talk about muddle, can say Baz has my sympathy with this lot...(don't think I dare add the answer is out there somewhere, lol)

Barry look what I've found;

Groom's Name: Thomas William Judge
Groom's Birth Date: 1851
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 42
Bride's Name: Emily Johnson
Bride's Birth Date: 1862
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 31
Marriage Date: 09 Jun 1893
Marriage Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Stephen Judge
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: Isaac Dunn
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Widowed
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Widowed
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00784-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1656689
Reference Number: it 3, p 169, no 337

A search of the LDS library catalog gets:

Film or fiche number 1656689

Title Parish registers for St. Peter's Church, Liverpool, 1704-1919
Authors Church of England. St. Peter's Church (Liverpool, Lancashire) (Main Author)
Notes Microfilm of original records at the Liverpool Record Office.

Once again thanks for all this!
I'm away in Sydney for a couple of days looking after my grandson,so will get back to this tomorrow.
Barry

Hello again Dee, Chris and mgnv,
Again many thanks for all your efforts in unravelling this one!
I'm still trying to puzzle out how the Dunn's met up with the Shaw's.
Charles Shaw started out as a railway goods porter in Derby and by 1871 was a goods guard in Cambridge. I'm also interested in the history of the railways and surprisingly the network was already big by 1860. There was a line from Derby to Leicester and from there to Birmingham and also to Cambridge via Peterborough. So it's possible Charles met his wife in the Cambridge area and the Dunn family in the Birmingham area - goods trains were rather slow and he would have to have stayed overnight away from home. He could even have fathered Annie Letitia!
It looks like Letitia's last child with Isaac Dunn was Walter in 1866.
Annie was born 5.11.1867 and John was born in 1869 after Letitia's marriage to John Lees.
I can't find a death for Isaac senior though!
Barry

Hi Dee,
I think you are probably right. Maybe Isaac left after he found out Annie wasn't his. From what I read divorce was uncommon amongst ordinary folk - they just parted and said they were widowed when wanting to marry again.
I think John born 1869 was probably the son of John Lees but not sure if he was registered as Lees or Dunn. There is a John Lees Dec Q 1869 in Kings Norton but also two John Dunn's in Stourbridge 1869. Maybe Letitia had already parted from John Lees by the time he was born. He appears with Letitia's maiden name in 1871 and as Dunn afterwards.
Once again thanks for all your help.
Barry
Edit: In the time it took me to answer your last post, it disappeared!!!
Did someone delete it?