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mi grandma just seems to have appeared from knowhere! i have ploughed thro THOUSANDS of william griffiths marriages,looking for a kelly...was looking at 1915,'16 and '17,going on the wedding certs...no joy. i know that yrs ago,an illigitimate child had their fathers name incorporated somewhere(on my other grandads side..his dad was a nxt door neighbour..a mr morris--my grandad,even tho he went under stockton,the same as his siblings(mi a.annie(88)said they all had different dads!) they put the morris as his middle name! wonder if jane ellens mother ever did marry,or did she just tell her her fathers name,somewhere along the line? have done 2 trees..one back to 1208,and the other to 1500s...but this one and mi catherine rice one,need sherlock holmes to sort out!!

That isn't always the case -- father's name as middle name -- and in fact was fairly rarely the case. (My great-aunt is one example whose middle name we were always told was the surname of her "father", her mother's employer's son.)

You do know that to find marriage pairs at FreeBMD you search for William Griffiths spouse Kelly (for example) ... not just William Griffiths and then look at them all to find a Kelly!

lol...i did put kelly down too....nothing on ancestry...nothing on lancs bmd. beginning to think her mother had an immaculate conception!

back again! put surname kelly into 1911 census,looking for births around 1850s;60s and 70s(any of which would tally with them giving birth in 1894) only one which was anything like close was ellen kelly(my gran was jane ellen) who lived at 58,walthew lane;platt bridge(mi aunty said her mother staed for a time with auntys "aunty amelia" in walthew lane) household in 1911 was:-ellen kelly(59); thomas (19); ellen elleson (21) and patrick clarke (25),b.roscommon. no mention of a jane ellen,but in 1911,she would be about 17,so could have moved out.

In 1901, Walthew Lane is the dividing line between District 22 and District 24, I think. Actually there may be more of it ...

District 24
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
West side of Liverpool Rd from the Primitive Methodist Chapel to Walthew Lane Nos 670-700 ... North East Side of Walthew Lane from Liverpool Road to the London and North Western Railway Bridge ... All the South West side of Walthew Lane from the London and North Western Railway Bridge to the west end of Platt Street ...

District 22
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
On the North by the Middle of Liverpool Road; on the East by the Great Central Railway; on the south by the Township of [Abram?], on the West by the middle of Walthew Lane and Liverpool Rd

Also District 23
Platt Bridge, S. Nathaniel
(doesn't mention Walthew Lane)


At Ancestry, you can search within those districts in 1901 by using the district number as a keyword (and then checking the number is actually the "ED, institution, or vessel" and not the page number, for instance.

This brought me to someone I'd looked at before:

Name: Jane Darlysline - it says Darbyshire
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England

22 Walthew Lane
ED, institution, or vessel: 22

Richard Anderton 27
Eliza Anderton 27
Ellen Anderton 1
Jane Darlysline 7


There are Derbyshires in districts 22 and 24.

Thomas and Ann are at 665 Liverpool Rd, district 22. They have a brother- and sister-in-law Henry and Emily Hayes.
Joseph and Rachel are at 10 Platt Street.
Jane Derbyshire likely married Q1 1911 Wigan, to Barrington or Turner.


In District 24 there is a Jane Ellen Harrison c1895 (birth 1894 Wigan) born Platt Bridge, parents Edward and Elizabeth Ann (marriage 1888 Wigan), 672 Liverpool Rd. Jane is not with the household in 1911.

There was a Jane Ellen Harrison born in Wigan in Q4 1894 and another in Q2 1896. I see that one in 1911 (Jane Ellan) but not the 1894 one (not with parents), also no death or marriage 1901-1911; but she may be the Jane Harrison 1894, servant, Wigan in 1911.. The younger one is in the 1901 in Hindley with parents Richard and Elizabeth.

There's no Kelly in any of the three districts.

I think we've done this before, but there's no Jane or Amelia in Walthew Lane in 1911 to fit. However, there are Kellys:
Ellen 1852
Mary 1878
Thomas 1892
John 1904

No Griffith(s) in Walthew Lane.

[deleted info that doesn't relate to Aunt Amelia *Bradshaw*]

And the upshot is ... she must have lived in Walthew Lane between 1901 and 1911, and not in either of those years!


The only other thing that has caught my eye anywhere is this possible marriage:

Marriages Dec 1912
Garner Margaret E Roberts Toxteth P 8b 315
> Hughes Jane E Kelly Toxteth P. 8b 315
> KELLY Robert W Hughes Toxteth P 8b 315
ROBERTS Thomas W Garner Toxteth P. 8b 315

There are loads of Kelly-Hughes births, but only one in Toxteth Park, Robert H in Q3 1913. There are 6 Jane Ellen Hughes births in Wales 1893-1894.



I think what you want is the 1921 census. It will say something about your Jane Ellen's date/place of birth! It's only 11 years to 2022.

Have you considered applying for the 1939 national ID card?

http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm

Did you ever answer about when your Jane Ellen died? If it was this death that I asked about on p. 1

Name: Jane E Evans
Death Registration Month/Year: 1939
Age at death (estimated): 45 = dob c1894
Registration district: Leigh
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 416

then she died in Q4 1939. The law about the national ID card was passed in September 1939. She may well have been deceased before a card was completed. Amazing bad luck if so. Applying for the card for Eli Evans, head of household, would give the answer. The instructions for applying are at the site above.

Just to add I found the easy way to search the 1901 by district, duh.

The general search form for UK censuses has spaces for

county or island - civil parish - district #

So just search for Jane by approx dob, district 22 then 23 then 24, if you want to check that out.


[deleted info that doesn't relate to Aunt Amelia *Bradshaw*]

do i subscribe to what janey? i am signed for 6mths on GR,and i pay a month by month one on another 2,i think!..one of them is one were you "pay" 5 or 10 credits to see things. btw..my amelia was married to a bradshaw.

i got a copy of jane ellens death certificate. details as follows:-no.284. 6th nov.1939 at 178,leigh rd.,atherton. jane ellen evans., female., wife of eli evans,general labourer., cancer of rt.breast.,certified by j.d gallagher., informant:-eli evans,present at death., registered 7th nov. sub-district of atherton in the county of lancaster.

will have to wait a while to get identity card janey...theres a charge of £42...i'll have to save up,cos we on old age pension. just in passing,did children HAVE to be registered in 1894? call it fanciful,but i wonder if jane ellens mother was a single parent called kelly,who either married a griffiths(jane ellens maiden name on 1917 marriage cert)or simply that william griffiths was her biological father who never married her mother?

Okay, so if they completed their national ID card registration before 6 Nov 1939, Jane Ellen would be on the record, and it would give an exact date of birth for her (at least to the best of her knowledge).

I think I would apply for that if I had the cash. Expensive, but the only way to get that info at present!

edit - crossed in the post - yes, it's more than I'd be spending myself.

And yes, children had to be registered in 1894. Which doesn't mean all were.


What I was asking about was FindMyPast -- but I've deleted what that was about because ...


Losing the thread and lost a couple of hours there. The info about Amelia Bradshaw is at bottom of page 3 and on page 4.

1911 in Platt Bridge

BRADSHAW AMELIA 1868 43 Wigan Lancashire
BRADSHAW JAMES 1864 47
BRADSHAW SARAH ELIZABETH 1888 23
BRADSHAW RICHARD 1890 21
BRADSHAW CATHERINE F 1894 17
BRADSHAW JAMES 1897 14
BRADSHAW GEORGE 1906 5 Wigan Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD BRADSHAW AMELIA F 1908 3
No Jane any surname in household.


1901 - 107 Walthew Lane, Platt Bridge
James Bradshaw 38
Amelia Bradshaw 33 - born Haydock, Lancashire
Sarah E Bradshaw 13
Richard Bradshaw 10
Catherine Bradshaw 7
James Bradshaw 4


Marriages Sep 1887
BRADSHAW James Wigan 8c 1
MILLER Amelia Wigan 8c 1


So obviously Jane was not with her in 1901 or 1911 and we haven't sorted out the connection. I'll delete the irrelevant info above so as not to confuse.

thankyou. when i asked mi a.elsie bout "aunt amelia",she said it was kind of "showing-off" to their friends about the number of relations they had! the more relatives they had the better...so they called friends and neighbours,auntie. she said the only birth date she ever knew for her mother was 26th june 1894

Elaine -- who is the person who has added to Amelia Bradshaw's name in the 1891 census at Ancestry?

Name: Amelia Bradshaw
[Amelia Miller]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Daughter-in-Law
Spouse's Name: James Bradshaw
Where born: Haydock, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Hindley

Richard Bradshaw 70
Sarah Bradshaw 57
James Bradshaw 28
Amelia Bradshaw 24
Elizabeth Bradshaw 3
Richard Bradshaw 10/12


I think that is someone you want to contact. The addition was made in April 2010. If you subscribe at Ancestry you can contact that person through the system. If not, you can take out a 14-day free trial and be sure to send the person your email address.

Mind you ... that person has a family tree with 20,000+ names in it ... so there may be no real connection whatsoever.

According to the tree, Amelia Miller Bradshaw's parents were John Miller 1839 and Elizabeth Ashurst 1844. James Bradshaw's parents were Richard Bradshaw 1821 and Sarah Gore 1834. There's no Griffith or Griffiths in the tree. There are a few Kellys, but they appear unrelated.

may be far-fetched,but is there anywhere i can put down "births . wigan. 26th june 1894"?

Nope. ;)

Where does 26 June 1894 come from?

Oh right, that's when Jane Ellen's birthday was celebrated.


edit

but these are the possibles


Births Jun 1894

Benfold Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 150
- died 1979 unmarried

Pilling Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 162
- married ?
- 1901 with parents Peter Pilling and Elizabeth (Cunliffe), Ashton in Makerfield (probably aged 7, not 9 as per Ancestry)
1911
PILLING JANE ELLEN 1894 17 Wigan with Peter


Births Sep 1894

Baldwin Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 11
- 1901 probably with mother Elizabeth in Aspull
1911
BALDWIN JANE 1895 16 Wigan
but I can't tell her relationship with the household

Cheetham Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 64
- may have married Unsworth 1912 Wigan or Darbyshire 1913 Wigan
- seems to be her in 1901:
District 47 Wigan
Thomas Spellsbury 38 - born Yorkshire Sheffield
Nancy Spellsbury 31 - born Durham
Janey Cheetham 6 - boarder
Eliza Spellsbury 3 Months - Eliza Coates Spillsbury Q1 1901 Wigan
Sarah Ann Shackleton 16
- can't identify a marriage; is Nancy a Coates?
- in 1891 Thomas seems to be married? to Sarah A. aged 32
1911; he died 1913 Wigan
CHEETHAM JANE ELLEN 1895 16 Wigan, daughter, with the Spillsburys

Green Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 15
Smith Jane Ellen Wigan 8c 118
- I've looked at both these before and they seemed to be settled with parents, as I recall

but why would it say jane ellen kelly on marriage to charles e anderson, and jane ellen anderson(widow) on marriage to eli evans? all points to her being illigitimate,doesnt it? or is mi brain addled with all the looking? lol

It says Jane Ellen Anderson (widow) on marriage to Eli Evans -- because she was.

Why Jane Ellen Kelly on marriage to Charles Anderson -- that is the question.

The other question is why she said her father was William Griffiths when she married Evans. And gave her original surname as Griffiths on her child's birth certificate.

Those questions are what all this is in aid of answering! and hasn't.

It doesn't necessarily point to her parents being unmarried. We don't have the data for a conclusion. It is certainly one good possibility.

just put up mi mum and mi two aunties,to see what mothers name was...gran down as griffiths on all three..also on her marriage cert to mi grandad eli in1917. puzzle is still why she down as jane ellen kelly on marriage cert to charles e anderson in 1915. know for DEFINITE it was her that married him,cos he only married once..in 1915,and was killed in action in 1916,serving with royal inniskillen fuseliers..7th battalion. his service medal passed to mi grandad when grandma died,then down to mi aunty when grandad died.

dont know if this match could be possible...been on ancestry and found a Ellen Jane Kelly(i understood gran was jane ellen)..mother mary ann kelly. E-J born june(correct month as far as i'm aware),but the year is wrong 1893 instead of the 1894 i was looking for. is it possible that she lied about her age,or would she have had to produce her birth cert. in order to get married? think i clutching at straws now! lol

re my posting added 23rd april....would it be possible for someone to fib about their age if they were older than their husband-to-be? reason i ask,is cos i (and a lot of helpful people on GR)were unable to find birth details for my grandma,jane ellen. i found ellen jane kelly b. 1893 wigan... again,is it possible to switch names round? ie ellen jane instead of jane ellen. and would a woman have to produce her birth cert when marrying? thankyou

No birth certificate was needed. People lied. About their age. About their name. About their father's name. All the time. My gr-grfather married under a completely fake name, naming a completely fake father with a fake occupation. He kept his correct given names, and he got his age right.

These are the reasons for many of the threads on this board. ;)

Why a Kelly would name a Griffiths as her father is the question.

Born Kelly to unmarried parents with mother Kelly, but knew who her father was.
Born Kelly and mother (re)married to Griffiths, her stepfather.
Vice versa, born Griffiths with stepfather Kelly.
Just lying because she was committing bigamy.
Lying because she had a child and had told her groom she was a widow.

People lied about ages so as not to be older (or too much older) than a spouse. The sister of that gr-grfather of mine lied by two years when she married, since she was really two years older than the groom. I'm sure people lied about their age when they were too young to marry.

Lying is one reason I suggested a younger person for Ellen Jane early in the thread.


This is the birth you are looking at:

Births Sep 1893
Kelly Ellen Jane Wigan 8c 107

There isn't an obvious marriage or death for her, or an obvious match in the 1901 census.