Find Ancestors

Have found out,with baptism addresses and census addresses being exactly the same,names and dates matching,that Mary Ann was the daughter of Thomas Kelly,mentioned in a post above.
Thankyou for that info,it verifies what I had found,but wasn't certain about.

I am closing this thread,having noted down the info.

The ENGLAND postings on this long thread seem to be correct,but have come to the conclusion,that,contrary to what my late mum told me,the Evans family did NOT originate in Wales.Maybe it was because Evans is a very Welsh name,I just don't know.,but have traced Eli Evans' family back to 17/1800s,and they never left Lancashire!

I have started a new thread,under the heading "look-up needed please",to see can I find more out about Jane Ellen.

I appreciate all the hard work people on GR have put in,so am not going to delete the post,so that anyone researching Evans or Griffiths,may take a look,and it may be of some help.

Once again...thank you all.xxx

its the ONLY flippin Mary ann kelly i could find in wigan,in 1871,81 and 91 censuses!lol

Census was 2 April 1871
Age highly possibly.

Please would someone take a look and see if I may have finally found my Gt Grandma,Mary Ann Kelly? I dont know when the census was taken in 1871,but I have Mary Ann down as being born c1868. Depending on when the census WAS taken,could the two yr old on here have been born c1868?

fingers crossed(although,if it IS her,I don't see how I can trace her mother back to Ireland!

I noticed on census report,that Mary Ann Kelly and mother Mary lived with the Cootes,in the Ecclesiastical District of St.Catherines......Mary Anns address on Ellen Janes' bapt,said St.Catherines too.

Please look...thankyou.........

1871 CENSUS

me: Mary Ann Kelly
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary Kelly
Gender: Female
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Wigan
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
Town: Wigan
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 86
Piece: 3885
Folio: 59
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Catherine Coote 55
James Coote 28
Catherine Coote 20
Elizabeth Coote 18
Peter Coote 15
Mary Kelly 25
Mary Ann Kelly 2

i have done a google search,Patchem...no luck.
Even went to another site and just put in Mary Ann Kelly....then in the box where you put keywords,i put in workhouse..no luck,so did same and put in frog lane..still nothing,
I rem a good while ago,someone told me how to get details from an address,unfortunately i lost the paper i wrote it on!
Will start a new thread and ask about workhouse inmates.
Do i not need to put names up,as i am only making a general enquiry re workhouse?

btw,i hadnt noticed that Janey was no longer on here....she used to help me...i liked her.

Elaine,

Unfortunately Janey does not use these boards any more.

You could try a separate thread asking specifically for suggestions for workhouse inmates.
Many people with good ideas will not read through all this thread, but may see a new topic and answer on there.
Be honest and explain that you have a separate thread running, but your new thread is just about ideas for information on inmates.
(I assume you have done a google search for workhouse listings).

Janey,I,too,found the William Griffith,b.Wrexham.

Marriage 25th Jan.1875. St.George. Wigan.
William Griffith(20)Collier.,Bachelor.,Chapel Lane.
TO Mary Ann Davies(20)Factory Operative.,Spinster.,Chapel Lane
Grooms father.;William Halliwell.,Collier
Brides father.,John Davies.,Collier
Witnesses.,James Dyke & Mary Marsh.

The Mary Davis in the 1891 Census,I think is the mother of Mary Ann.

Elizabeth Byroms' maiden name was Davies...she married William Byrom in St.Nicholas Church.,Liverpool,on 8th Mar.1881.(her father down as George,same as her son)

Re Jane Ellen Kelly(or Ellen Jane)..I already had a birth in 1893.St.Catherine.,Wigan....mother Mary Ann Kelly.,single woman.,4,Canal St.(wonder if theres a map of Wigan c1890,showing where Canal St is?)

However,I was playing about on Lancs OPC,putting in surnames alone.....found the birh of twins in 1888..

Born & Bapt on 2nd Sep.1888.,Samuel Kelly.,son of Mary Ann Kelly.,Workhouse.
Also Born and Bapt on 2nd Sep.1888.,Thomas Kelly.,son of Mary Ann Kelly.,Workhouse.
It says these two listings were bracketed together in Records.

I found out the Wigan Workhouse was in Frog Lane,but can't find where a list of inmates is available.....any ideas welcome.

I have just sat and read through all these posts,which were put on when I first started looking for ancestors.
I cannot believe the things I wrote,instead of sticking to the facts! I made myself look very foolish.
If I offended anyone back then, I sincerely apologise.
Elaine. :-(

I am going to ignore all I was told that was passed down through the family(hearsay)and am starting from scratch with what facts are there in black and white.

i dont know how you find stuff...i looked on census for 1891 and 1901,looking for maryann and ellen jane,then went looking for school in kirkdale,but couldnt find it!

Okay, my vent retracted, the private message in question wasn't from someone at this site about this thread. ;) (That does happen, a lot.)

Ancestry *family trees* are not to be relied on w/o proof -- but what the person is telling you appears to come from censuses:

"there was a william kelly(13) b.hindley and john henry kelly,b.wigan in a school in kirkdale"

You can check that out in censuses, can't you? Was it 1901? You haven't said.

Kelly wasn't an uncommon name in the area.


1901

Name: John Henry Kelly
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England

Name: William Kelly
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Where born: Handley, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Kirkdale
Kirkdale Industrial Schools


So, you read my previous post? William looks rather like the one shown as son of Walliam (a mistranscription) and Sarah, in Hindley, in 1891. John Kelly, no telling. And William and John Henry may be completely unrelated.

There's no point in collecting names like that if you aren't going to do something with them. Track them through censuses, search trees for them.

Have you searched trees for Ellen Woosey, wife of Michael Kelly who seems to be related to Eliza Kelly who may have a sister Ellen Jane Kelly?

sorry janey...only just got the message this morn re the industrial school...asked on a tree on ancestry,and he got back to me....didnt know if it could be right or not,cos there no mention of any brothers. sounded feasible tho. i understand bout the william griffiths connection maybe being her father...my paternal g/dad(i think i said to you b4)was given the neighbours surname as his middle name,as he was his father. looking at some of the above suggestions,i'm now wondering if mi g/dad meant i resembled mi grandmas' UNCLES,and not brothers? the fella on ancestry also said(sorry,i just went back and read it through again..twice!)that there was a william kelly(13) b.hindley and john henry kelly,b.wigan in a school in kirkdale. sorry for not putting it in sooner...i know several people on GR think ancestry not that accurate,so a bit unsure wot to put on.!

Just a bit more ...

There are two William Griffiths-s in Ince in 1891:

William Griffiths 48 - born Caeggwell, Flintshire, Wales
Barbara Griffiths 54
Thomas Jones 35
Louisa Jones 25
John Jones 27
John Williams 29
Barbara Williams 28
Hurbert Williams 3
Peter Griffiths 5
Isaac Jones 5/12

William Griffiths 36 - born Wrexham, Flintshire, Wales
Mary A Griffiths 35
Mary Griffiths 15
John R Griffiths 13
Jane Griffiths 11
Maria Griffiths 9
Ann Griffiths 6
William Griffiths 4
Joseph Griffiths 1
Mary Davies 71
Elizabeth Byrom 43
George Byrom 5


It's not beyond the realm of the imaginable that one of them was the father of Mary Ann Kelly's daughter.

Astra -- if the spouses were estranged and the wife was with someone else then I think it's quite reasonable to think that the parents would have left her out of the picture.

The info on the CWGC records was gathered some time after the fact. Many widows were already remarried (they are named on the records under their new married surnames, sometimes saying formerly so-and-so).

It does look like the marriage was because of a pregnancy. He was in the military at war. The spouses would never have cohabited. The military was likely unable to contact the widow when the time came (I expect she would have forfeited any pension by remarrying). She did get his medal, but that would have been issued earlier maybe.


Now let me just say again how dumb it is for people to send PMs about threads on the board. Someone has sent you a PM about Eliza Kelly and Jane Kelly in an industrial school in Wigan in 1901. Why in the name of * not tell the rest of us that has been done? Why not put it in the thread? Why make some private game out of it? It gets straight up my nose when that's done. Others are diligently trying to find the information available, and make it available to everyone trying to help so it can be considered, and here's somebody sending private messages that no one else can see.


So we have:

ellen jane kelly. b.18th june 1893 4,canal st. st.catherines. wigan. baptism 30th aug.1893 mother mary ann kelly.spinster. residence in 1893,wigan.

I don't have access to baptisms at Ancestry so my own searches are incomplete in that regard.

So the here is the birth registration to go with that baptism:

Births Sep 1893
Kelly Ellen Jane Wigan 8c 107

This could be Eliza:

Births Jun 1894
Kelly Eliza Wigan 8c 84

If that Ellen Jane knew that her father was William Griffiths, she might have named him on her marriage certificate. Or if he was her stepfather.

It is logical that the girls would have been in an industrial school if their mother died. Aunt Amelia might have been a foster mother. By 1911 the girls would have been in service or some such.

This could be Eliza in 1911:

KELLY ELIZA 1895 16 Wigan Lancashire
- answers to Hindley as place of residence and birth, but I can't see address

... except she's in a household with other Kellys

Michael 1880
Ellen 1887
Hannah 1890
Martha 1893 - born Hindley
Susan Mary 1910 - born Hindley

Martha Kelly 1895 born in Wigan is an inmate of Liverpool Workhouse in 1901.

There's an Ellen in that household who doesn't match ours (unless there's some mistranscription on her age maybe, but 24 vs 18 wouldn't make much sense). No, that Ellen is "wife" (and Susan Mary is their daughter):

Marriages Sep 1909
ARMSTRONG John Wigan 8c 218
> KELLY Michael Wigan 8c 218
PARKINSON Mary Wigan 8c 218
> WOOSEY Ellen Wigan 8c 218

There's no Ellen or Jane Kelly in Hindley otherwise.


I searched trees here for Ellen Woosey. Two people have one born in Ince. In the 1911, Ellen, Hannah and Michael answer to born in Ince. Here is the household in 1891 in Hindley (all born Lancashire):

Walliam Kelly 28
Sarah Kelly 35
Thomas Kelly 13
> Michael Kelly 11
Mary Kelly 8 -- too young to be mother of Ellen and Eliza
Margaret Kelly 7
William Kelly 4
> Hannah Kelly 1

That's the only Mary Kelly in Hindley.

Canal St, Wigan, seems to be classifiable as Ince. There are two Mary Kellys there in 1891:

Michael Kelly 62
Sarah Kelly 62
Mary A Kelly 30 - born Ince
Ann Kelly 25
Margaret Kelly 22

John Kelly 49
Jane Kelly 54
Mary Kelly 21 - born Ince
John Kelly 19
Elizabeth Kelly 13
Jane Kelly 11
Micheal Carney 49

but aha:

Thomas Kelly 48 - born Llangollen, Wales, coal miner
Maria Kelly 43
Thos Edward Kelly 22
> Maryann Kelly 20 - born Shropshire, Whitehaven, cotton mill hand
Frances M Kelly 17 - born Birney? Wrexham? Wales
Mary Elizth Kelly 14
Richard Kelly 12
Grace Kelly 6
James Bond 38

That one looks interesting. Aged 29 in 1897 would not be far off for Maryann aged 20 in 1891, as these things go. Here is the household in 1881 in Broughton, reg dist Wrexham, Denbighshire:

Thomas Kelly 36
Maria Kelly 31
Thomas Ed. Kelly 12
Mary Ann Kelly 10
Jno. Wm. Kelly 8
Frances Maria Kelly 6
Richard Kelly 1
Thomas Jones 35
Ezra Anderson 27
Mary Eliz. Kelly 4


I think we may have traced the family of Eliza and Ellen Kelly in the 1901 census. But that doesn't make that Ellen Jane your Jane Ellen. ;) And it certainly doesn't explain Mr. Griffiths!

i think the first one maybe,janey...born to unmarried mother. have gone round and round in circles,tying miself in knots,and always come back to the ellen jane b.1893>mother mary ann kelly. another member pm me and he had found ellen jane kelly.>b.18th june 1893>4,canal st.>st.catherines. wigan.>baptism 30th aug.1893>mother mary ann kelly.spinster.>residence in 1893,wigan. i been looking for any brothers,cos mi grandad DID used to say i was tall and well-built(arent i lucky!)and took after mi grandmas brotherS. the man who pm me said there was an eliza kelly(6) and jane kelly(8)are located at industrial school in wigan in 1901. also that a record exists for the burial of mary ann kelly(29)in pemberton.wigan in 1897. ties in with the industrial school i suppose,if t he mother died when the two girls were only 2 & 4. does any of this sound feasible? astra,don't know bout the death notice..all i DO know is that his medal was passed down from grandma>grandad>a.elsie. she donated it back to the regiment for their museum. i must find out where this is,cos inniskillen isnt too far from here,and i could go there. i really appreciate all the help i am getting from you all. thankyou

I have been reading this thread with interest and this is just an observation. If the Charles Anderson who died in 1916 above is the correct one wouldn't his death notice say Husband of Jane (as my grandfather's does) and not son of?

No birth certificate was needed. People lied. About their age. About their name. About their father's name. All the time. My gr-grfather married under a completely fake name, naming a completely fake father with a fake occupation. He kept his correct given names, and he got his age right.

These are the reasons for many of the threads on this board. ;)

Why a Kelly would name a Griffiths as her father is the question.

Born Kelly to unmarried parents with mother Kelly, but knew who her father was.
Born Kelly and mother (re)married to Griffiths, her stepfather.
Vice versa, born Griffiths with stepfather Kelly.
Just lying because she was committing bigamy.
Lying because she had a child and had told her groom she was a widow.

People lied about ages so as not to be older (or too much older) than a spouse. The sister of that gr-grfather of mine lied by two years when she married, since she was really two years older than the groom. I'm sure people lied about their age when they were too young to marry.

Lying is one reason I suggested a younger person for Ellen Jane early in the thread.


This is the birth you are looking at:

Births Sep 1893
Kelly Ellen Jane Wigan 8c 107

There isn't an obvious marriage or death for her, or an obvious match in the 1901 census.

re my posting added 23rd april....would it be possible for someone to fib about their age if they were older than their husband-to-be? reason i ask,is cos i (and a lot of helpful people on GR)were unable to find birth details for my grandma,jane ellen. i found ellen jane kelly b. 1893 wigan... again,is it possible to switch names round? ie ellen jane instead of jane ellen. and would a woman have to produce her birth cert when marrying? thankyou

dont know if this match could be possible...been on ancestry and found a Ellen Jane Kelly(i understood gran was jane ellen)..mother mary ann kelly. E-J born june(correct month as far as i'm aware),but the year is wrong 1893 instead of the 1894 i was looking for. is it possible that she lied about her age,or would she have had to produce her birth cert. in order to get married? think i clutching at straws now! lol

just put up mi mum and mi two aunties,to see what mothers name was...gran down as griffiths on all three..also on her marriage cert to mi grandad eli in1917. puzzle is still why she down as jane ellen kelly on marriage cert to charles e anderson in 1915. know for DEFINITE it was her that married him,cos he only married once..in 1915,and was killed in action in 1916,serving with royal inniskillen fuseliers..7th battalion. his service medal passed to mi grandad when grandma died,then down to mi aunty when grandad died.