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I'm thinking like KathleenB, get the 1921 birth certificate.

We'd know who the mother was on that one then, and see whether there was a later marriage for her. Or an earlier marriage.

It could be that the siblings were born to the mother's marriage to a Mr Kenny (or maybe just partnership with him), and Kathleen then used the same name as the rest of the family, even though she was born Manning.

There aren't any Manning-Kenny or Kenny-Manning births that match the names of Kathleen's siblings. Do you have any idea whether she had older or younger siblings? (Right, I see Margaret was older.)

By the way, Kenny is indeed an Irish name -- but I have Kenny ancestors in Northamptonshire back before 1800. ;)

as far as william lynch goes I know he had a sister called alice and a brother called ronald again I have no dob alice married a sydney cutler which i couldnt find and they had a daughter stephanie and poss another daughter iris

Name: Margaret Kenny
Spouse Surname: English
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1937
Registration district: Deptford
Registration county (inferred): London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 1415
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Thomas A English Kenny Jan-Feb-Mar 1937 Deptford London

apparently nearly all older but not 100%

Births Sep 1917
Kenny Margaret Hurley Greenwich 1d 1350


These look kind of good:

Births Jun 1912
Kenny Norah Hurley Greenwich 1d 1943
Births Jun 1914
KENNY Michael Hurley Greenwich 1d 2071
Births Sep 1917
Kenny Margaret Hurley Greenwich 1d 1350
Births Mar 1921
Kenny Harry Hurley Greenwich 1d 1738
Births Sep 1922
Kenny Albert Hurley Greenwich 1d 1638
Births Dec 1924
Kenny Henry Hurley Greenwich 1d 1349
Births Dec 1927
Kenny Leonard Hurley Greenwich 1d 1185
Births Dec 1932
Kenny Patrick A Hurley Deptford 1d 919

and also

Births Dec 1908
Kenny Mark Greenwich 1d 965
Births Mar 1910
KENNY Ernest James A Greenwich 1d 978
Births Jun 1910
KENNY Daniel Greenwich 1d 1047
- one or the other of those last two ;)

Maybe?

Marriages Jun 1912
Hurley Norah Kenny Greenwich 1d 1857
KENNY Martin Hurley Greenwich 1d 1857


We have the names Margaret, Norah, Michael, Ernest, Patrick, Mark, Leonard ... all family names.

Thank you janeycanuck
Ithink this is fab

In the 1911, Ernest James Andre Kenny 1910 is living with Ernest James Kenny and Olive Helena Kenny.

Marriages Sep 1900
Hall Olive Helena Greenwich 1d 1992
Kenny Ernest James Greenwich 1d 1992

I'm not seeing Mark Kenny or Daniel Kenny in the 1911 so far ...

Here we are, common spelling variant:

KENNEY DANIEL 1910 1 Greenwich London
KENNEY MARK 1909 2
KENNEY MARTIN 1886 25
KENNEY NORAH 1890 21

AHA!

Births Mar 1921
Kenny Harry Hurley Greenwich 1d 1738
Births Sep 1922
Kenny Albert Hurley Greenwich 1d 1638

Births Mar 1921
Manning Harry Hurley Greenwich 1d 1738
Births Sep 1922
Manning Albert Hurley Greenwich 1d 1638


Norah Hurley had children with Mr. Manning while married to Mr. Kenny, and they were registered under both names.

Interestingly, that 1921 Kathleen birth was registered two ways as well:

Births Mar 1921
Mannering Kathleen Mannering Kensington 1a 145
Manning Kathleen Manning Kensington 1a 145

(There's a Walter Kenny mother Smith on the same page as well, pure coincidence I imagine.)


But -- if the Harry Kenny/Mannering birth 1921 is your Kathleen's brother, that 1921 Kathleen birth in the same quarter can't be your Kathleen.

I checked the image. The original registration was as Mannering. There's a handwritten addition to the list as Manning. Must have been a spelling mistake the first time.

Can you tell us (or remind me) when/where Kathleen died, if you know?

Where'd you go, Clare?? ;)

I think this is a perfect example of how databases and search engines (and people who know how to tweak and trick them) are way more likely to come up with answers than any professional genealogist!

Now, to get back to "Ernest Patrick Kenny" -- he didn't exist.

Norah Hurley's husband was Martin Kenny.

He could have been Ernest Patrick Manning, and Kathleen made the necessary adjustment.

This was not at all uncommon -- for instance, when my famous Hill/Monck gr-grfather married the first time as Ernest Hill, he correctly named his father as Francis Hoare Hill. When he married the second time under his fake surname, he named his father as Francis Monck. When people lied, they tended to keep a grain of truth. ;)

It might also be that her mother's father was Ernest Patrick Hurley, she had an uncle Ernest Patrick, etc.

I don't see any record of an Ernest Patrick Manning.

But the birth certificate of one of the children registered as both Kenny and Manning might give the answer.

These names -- Hurley, Kenny, at least -- are Irish; I don't know about Manning - ? So Kathleen's father could be absent from all English records.

1911

KENNEY, Martin Head Married M 25 1886 Rag Dealer Rougham Yorkshire
KENNEY, Norah Wife Married 6 years
F 21 1890 Greenwich
KENNEY, Mark Son M 2 1909 Deptford
KENNEY, Daniel Son M 1 1910 Deptford

Registration District:
Greenwich Sub District:
Deptford East Enumeration District:
3 Parish:
St Paul Deptford

Address:
41 Giffin St Deptford County:
London

I couldn't find a marriage in 1905/6 for this couple so I would assume it could actually be the marriage in 1910... Edit 1912
Norah would of only been 15 years at marriage if she had been married 6 years in 1911?

The marriage in 1912, that is?

Marriages Jun 1912
Hurley Norah Kenny Greenwich 1d 1857
KENNY Martin Hurley Greenwich 1d 1857


I think her age is likely understated in 1911.

I'd make this her in 1901:

Name: Norah Hurley
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Servant
Where born: Deptford, London, England
Civil parish: Greenwich


Oh, and of course I'd make the "married 6 years" one of those census fibs to account for the children. ;)


I'd thought of going hunting back, but thought it wise to have Kathleen's own identity better established first.

I'd suggest that Clare get the Lynch-Kenny marriage certificate and one of the Kenny-Manning-Hurley birth certificates and see what they have to say.

And maybe the Kenny-Hurley marriage certificate for good measure.

I agree with you JaneyC


Births Mar 1887
HURLEY Nora Greenwich 1d 1071

thank youso so much janeycanuck and everyone else.I have a two year old so had to disapear quickly and I really wish I could have stayed with you. didnt even get time to write a message, you know what toddlers are like. My mum is so happy to have this info and all that re manning and kenny makes so much sense. my mum is trying to remember where kathleen died. She thinks it was aug 1999. They were not close unfortunatly.
thanks again I cant tell you how much this means

my mum also said that the grandad was a rag dealer so this too seems very true. you are so good at this.she is applying for the marraige cert as we speak

Ah, the little things that jog the memory! (Ta for the full 1911, FannyByGaslight!)

Can't see a death around Aug 1999 that seems to match well. Does your mum have any idea where she died?

No rush, gotta wait for certificates anyhow. Do get one of the Manning-Kenny-Hurley births too, though. That seems like maybe the only way to find out who Mr. Manning was.