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Hi Jan

Thanks for this, I'm sure Vanessa will see it, if she doesn't say so I'll send her a pm.

Hi Marion
I mentioned that there was no number Bk of 73 Watville Rd on dad's birth cert as there was 3 Bk of 73 on 1911 census and thought this might make a difference when Vanessa has time to look at the electoral records she has access to.
There's a good description from Jonesey of the back-to-back houses on P2 of this thread

Meant to be going to bed then found this flipping thread !!

Very briefly, the site that I have looked at previously has only transcibed the elec roll from specific years . I presume at the library they have every year ? or were they not done every year then ??

Come back to this tomorrow but I do have work

bw

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa
Not sure if they have a full run of electoral registers, but if not it could be an idea to look at the rates books which are held in the Archives. Don´t think you need a readers ticket to look at them because they are on open shelves.
Also, has anybody looked to see if any of the family have left wills?
I know it seems a bit unlikely, but you never know.
Marion

Good Morning Marion
We haven't come across any wills for our immediate family, unfortunately we don't appear to have been wealthy. Would that mean a trip to the library or is there a website?

Continuing the search, we now know the first name of the woman William Jnr married, we don't have a maiden name, a date or a place. We also know the names and approx dob for the 3 children. It is possible that his widow is still living and also the children.
We've done an Ancestry search for a marriage using just his details and another using his details and her first name but, as we've all said before William Clarke is such a popular name there apear to be dozens of marriages. There is one possibility in Dec Q 1960 that matches the first name we've been given.
We've done Ancestry searches using the childrens first names together with the Clarke surname giving fathers name only, others adding mothers first name and others using the maiden name of the possible mother.
We've also checked the public members trees on Ancestry, there is a family tree with the surname of the possible marriage we have found but she doesn't appear to be on that
Sorry to say we haven't made any connections at all.
Marion we'll send you pm with the names as we know that living people shouldn't be mentioned on a thread, if anyone else would like the challenge please do ask.

Just a couple of comments, Vanessa I was the one who came up with the link between Muriel Hughes and Robert Clarke (i.e. Uncle bt marriage). Have to now confess that I hadn't read the previous postings properly.
Robert Clarke and family lived in Alfred ROAD - the Clarkes that Anthony is interested in lived in Alfred STREET.
So more than likely, no connection between the two Clarke families.

Re Elec Regs. Remember women did not get the vote till after the first world war, so there will be no record of Ellen before then.

Anthony (and anyone else interested) you can drink water while you search the records at Central Library (as long as you bring your own).
A few floors down, there is a toilet (very useful) and also a cafe, where you can get drinks, soup, sandwiches, jacket potatoes etc.
There are also a few places to eat just outside the Library.

Tess

Tony.
You might like to have a look at this in 1871 census
8 Bath Row
John Babington h m 63 Brass founder employing 6 men
Caroline Babington W M 50
Benjamin Babington s unm 24 brass founder
Mary Babington d unm 22
Charlotte Babington d unm 20
Caroline Clarke granddaughter unm 10
All born b¨ham.
Suspect Caroline was John´s 2nd wife.
John died 19 1 1875 Effects under 3,000 Executors, wife Caroline while she was a widow & son Benjamin.
1881 living 132 Rocky Lane Aston with Benjamin aged 34 & Caroline Clarke aged 20.
was browsing through wills & Babington /Clarke link seemed too good to ignore, but haven´t had time to look any closer.
Marion

Hi Tess
Thanks for the info about the library. I'd forgotten all about women not getting the vote until after WW1 maybe someone could look at the addresses we have

Anthony, re. the above - it would be helpful if you listed the addresses you want to investigate, and which years. It's got very complicated hasn't it!
Jan

Another step forward and another back! Can it get any worse?

William Clarke born 1913 West Bromwich - birth cert has arrived at long last: -

No: ?
When & where born: 21 September 1913 Bk 19 Alfred St Handsworth, B'ham
Name: William
Name & surname of father: Blank
Name, surname & maiden name of mother: Nellie Clarke
Occupation of father: Blank
Signature, description & residence of informant: Nellie Clarke, Mother, 19 Alfred St Handsworth (no X, words "mark of" or signature)
When registered: 29 October 1913

Going back to my post on 25 September re correct completion of birth certificates, I think the following section applies to the above info: -

Of column 4 - Name and Surname of the Father "this column should only be completed if the childs parents were married to each other. If this column is blank the mother was not married to the childs father, from 1875 it was possible for both parents who were not married to each other to be joint informants and then the fathers name will be entered into this column but, both parents would sign the informant section"

It looks like she ran out of names to give for the father or now she's older she's stopped caring about her reputation, whichever it was the father was not present when the birth was registered.

We still have William John Clarke named as his father on his marriage certificate but this sounds like it could have been an educated guess. Like on my dad Ernest's marriage cert his father was named as John Babbington (Ernest on his birth cert) maybe to match Ellen Jane's and Rosie May's, probably the Babbington children all assumed they had the same father if they didn't have a copy of Ernest's birth cert. Why on earth couldn't William have chosen John Clarke to match Lilian's dad I don't know.

Hi Jan

The addresses are on P 19, posted on 5th October.

As you can see above we've just had William's birth cert, the address is the same as the one Ellen was living at as Nellie Clarke in 1920.

Hi Vanessa

If you get the opportunity to look at the book of monumental inscriptions, my older brother says that Ellen's grave is in Handworth cemetary. He remembers seeing it as a child, from what he recalls it has a white head and gravestone with black lettering with the name Clarke on it. If it doesn't take up too much of your time and of course please do your own research first ours can wait until another visit, anything else written on it will hopefully confirm what we know and may add something we don't.

Edit..... sorry Vanessa because you are now an honorary Babbington I didn't think to give you dob info etc for Ellen: - birth, Dec Q 1875 Birmingham, death Jan 1938

Hi Anthony, and thanks for the messages . Well my mind has gone into overdrive and I am fairly befuddled ( is that a word ??)

Have had a heavy day at work so going to read all the new info again in the morning.

Nice to think I've become an honorary Babbington !! Do I get some kind of certificate for "contributions to family research " . Maybe I could get a tracksuit for my attack on the Archives at the library with "Team Babbington" on the back. Brummiejan and I could scuttle round ,
running up and down the isles flinging files and microfilm at each other. !

I'm going now before I have a breakdown at the computer .

Best wishes

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa

I hope you're still with us and the potential breakdown didn't happen. I'm sure there must be a word befuddled - it's so descriptive.

Love the idea of the Team Babbington tracksuits for you and BrummieJan! But the flinging of files etc - now we know you're cracking up and that maybe we ought not to be party to allowing you loose in the library. Although I don't expect they have ladies with hair in buns wearing spectacles saying Sshhhhhh all the time anymore!

Re post on 7 Oct, William Clarke's birth date has been confirmed as 21 September 1913 and in the description of informant box there is no X or words "mark of" or signature. I still haven't seen a copy yet.

More electoral roll info (includes info posted on previous page by Vanessa: -

1920 at 4 back of 19 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke

1922,1927 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke

1930 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke and Nellie Jane Babbington

1935 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Nellie Clarke and Ellen Jane Babbington,William Clarke

1939 at 4 court 2 Alfred Street - Ellen Jane Babbington

1945,1950 at 4 back of 19 Alfred Street - William Clarke and Muriel Clarke

Where were the children? If voting age 21 suerly they would have appeared on electoral rolls?
Ellen Jane Babbington would have been 21 by 1920, where was she in 1920, 1922 and 1927? She was living with her mum Ellen Clarke in 1930, her son wasn't born until 1933.

Rosie/Rose May Babbington married in 1923, age 23, she married from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St, why wasn't she with her mum in 1920 & 1922?

Lilian didn't marry until 1928 age 25, why wasn't she with her mum in 1927? Why did she marry from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St?

Did the girls stay at 4 Bk 19 Alfred Street when Ellen moved to 4 Court 2 Alfred Street?

My dad Ernest Babington/Babbington didn't marry until 1933, age 23, he married from 34 White Rd Smethwick, where was he before this?

William Clarke married from 4 Bk 19 Alfred St in 1936

Only Ellen Jane Babbington remained in 1939, William had married in 1936 and Ellen Kirby Clarke had died in 1938

Can anyone help with this please?

Hi Tony, just found your PM and the additions here to the thread . Looked at the archive info at Birmingham and found this amongst lots of other info.If you google "birmingham archives" , bottom of the page family history
Electoral roll--------These are the records of everyone registered to vote, in a certain year, in a certain place. People who did not register are not included, even though they may have been entitled to vote.



Who is included?

The lists show only those entitled to vote.

Initially no women had the vote. Before 1918 the right to vote was also linked with property, and the liability to pay tax. There have been a number of changes in voting rights; some of the
most important are listed below. Ask staff for the 'Voting Rights' sheet in the Genealogy folder, for further details.

1832

One man in seven had the vote

1869

Some unmarried women and widows were allowed to vote in local elections only.

1884

Two men in three could vote.

1918

Men over 21, women over 30.

1928

Everyone over 21.

1969

Everyone over 18


Possible inaccuracies and omissions

As already mentioned, women did not appear on any of the earlier lists, nor did men without property.

Doesn't answer all the questions but maybe some ?

Will have another go with the online site and see if any of your people turn up .

bw

Vanessa

Thank you for finding this, it explains why we couldn't find some of the children living with Ellen once they reached 21, which we thought was the age people were eligible to vote. We didn't realise there were other criteria back then. We're learning all the time.

Hi Tony.
Do you think it is just coincidence that William Clarke & Muriel Hughes were living in the same house in1950 as Nellie was living in 1920.
It would suggest that either someone in the family owned the house or, if it was rented, some member of the family was in it for 30 years.
A look at the rates book for the 2 addresses will tell you who owned them.
They are on open shelves in Birmingham Archives but not sure how far into the 20th century. You could try contacting the archivist as it´s not a big job for them to have a quick look.
Marion