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I have emailed the Hull History Society, the replied to say that they had no Workhouse records at all!

I agree I need to find out who John William's mother was Louisa or Jane.

I have found Janes marriage to Frederick on IGI as Frederick Lass???
She was born in Sunderland area.
So if John William was her son was, why did she go to Hull.

IGI marriage record

groom's name: Frederick Lass
groom's birth date: 1832
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 32
bride's name: Jane Smith
bride's birth date: 1838
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 26
marriage date: 06 Sep 1864
marriage place: Monk-Wearmouth, Durham, England
groom's father's name: John Lass
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Cavendish Smith
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status: Single
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status: Single
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M00769-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1514569
reference number: 17

Where did Louisa and the children go.
Did they go back to Germany?

Still don't understand if John Williams parents were alive but separated or Fred was married to Jane why John William was in the workhouse.

Without any records I guess I will never know.

Cavendish Smith - there can't be many of those in Sunderland.

Simon, I am not following at all.


"Still don't understand if John Williams parents were alive but separated or Fred was married to Jane why John William was in the workhouse."

If John/William's parents were Frederick and Louisa and *the Frederick married to Jane was a completely different person*, as seems likely, this question has no meaning or relevance.

The standard reason for a child being in an institution was that the parents were both deceased. Possibly, the mother (or the father) was deceased and the remaining parent could not care for the child.

It hardly makes sense that John/William would be the child of parents who married in 1864 and were together and not apparently impoverished in 1871, and yet he would be in a workhouse.

It also makes virtually no sense that a couple who married in 1864 in Tynemouth (or wherever it was) would then have a child shortly after that in Hull and then be in Tynemouth in the next census. Just no sense!

You have said you have a birth certificate for John William Sass -- why on earth not find it and look at it??? and then you will know who his parents were!!!

If you actually ordered and received John William Sass's birth certificate, the record has to be -- has to be -- in the GRO index somewhere. And yet it is no where to be found.

I'm afraid you must be misremembering that certificate's existence.

This idée fixe you have got, that there was one Fred, who first had wife Louisa and children, and wife Louisa and children "went" somewhere, and the same Fred married Jane Smith, all in two completely different places (and with different birth details for the Freds) just doesn't make sense.

HI JC

I hope you had a great weekend.

I must have misremembered this certificate, I last looked at this some time ago.

Sass is such an unusual name in England and therefore any Sass's in Hull may / must be related to John William.

John William in Hull is the only John William Sass of the right age to match the John William in Manchester.

Two Fred Sass's maybe.

Two marriages maybe

I certainly can't find the births and deaths of the key people.

So if John William was born in 1867 who was the mother Louisa, Jane or someone else?

Simon, I have followed this thread with interest.

You say, "I must have misremembered this certificate" Do you mean that you don't have John William Sass's birth certificate after all?

Ozi

Ozbird,

I thought I had this Cert, but I have mixed it with another John William.

I am know a little confused.

The facts are that my wifes mother was born in Manchester.

She gave me all the details of her family and I spoke to her eldest sister who was born in the 1920's.

I found the 1901 Census easily and found their father as a 2 year old boy living with his mother and father.
His father is given as John William Sass born Hull.
I have subsequently seen the 1911 census and it also states where born Hull.

I cannot find a birth for John William Sass or William John Sass or any variation on the GRO.

The only Sass of the right gender & age I have found on the 1891 Census
was a John William Sass in Manchester working in a bleachworks
In 1891 in Manchester working as a blacksmith but living as a boarder at 1 Alfred St in Rusholme, Manchester
In 1881 I found him in Hull Workhouse
In 1871 I found him in Hull Workhouse

I am 95% positive that from 1871 to 1911 they are the same person.

From this point on I am struggling to find his parents.

Any inspiration would be appreciated.

I am truly stuck.

Simon, who is their father as a 2 year old boy in 1901?

If we start with the facts and go back again then we'll see where we end up.

The 2 year old boy was William Earnest Sass born in Manchester 1899

His father was William John Sass born Hull in about 1867

1911

SASS JOHN WILLIAM 1869 42 Prestwich Lancashire
SASS BEATRICE 1876 35
SASS BEATRICE MAY 1898 13
SASS WILLIAM ERNEST 1899 12
SASS JOHN HENRY 1901 10

1881 Census


name: William Sass
age: 15
gender: Male
birth year: 1866
birthplace: Hull, Yorkshire, England
relationship to head of household: Pauper Inmate
marital condition: Single
profession/occupation: Scholar
address: Hull Workhouse Anlaby Road
census place: Kingston Upon Hull Holy Trinity And St Mary, Yorkshire (East Riding), England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1342154
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 4780 / 106
page number: 22

Is John William Sass the same person as William Sass?

We really can't tell without finding his birth. It does seem likely as you say, not many Sass born in Hull. Not that we actually know he was born in Hull.

It is very unfortunate that he is a scholar both times in the workhouse. I wonder if blacksmithing was a skill taught in the workhouse.

Ozi

Very true

On both the 1891 and 1901 original census images it does state where born Hull.

How many other Sass's were born in Hill in the 1860's

Please take a step ffurther back You mentioned your mother and she is stii alive. Is her middle initial B?

Ok working from most recent date downwards. I have removed your mother as you have said she is living.


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
Name:Ernest William Sass
Birth Date:4 Dec 1898
Death Registration Month/Year:Sep 1985
Age at death (estimated):86
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County:Lancashire
Volume:38
Page:1408


Births Mar 1925
Sass Irene Hancock Manchester N. 8d 652


Births Jun 1927
Sass Marjorie Hancock Manchester N. 8d 609

Births Dec 1929
Sass John W Hancock Manchester N. 8d 663



Marriages Dec 1924
Hancock Gladys Sass Prestwich 8d 651
Sass Ernest W Hancock Prestwich 8d 651

1911 census - household transcription
Person: SASS, Beatrice
Address: 29 Slack Road Lr Crumpsall Manchester
SASS, John William G Married M 42 1869 Fitter Yorkshire Hull
SASS, Beatrice Wife Married 14 years F 35 1876 Winton Lancashire
SASS, Beatrice May Daughter F 13 1898 School Lanc Blackley
SASS, William Ernest Son M 12 1899 School Lanc Crumpsall
SASS, John Henry Son M 10 1901 School Lanc Crumpsall
HAMER, Arthur Nephew M 9 1902 School Lanc Crumpsall
HAMER, Ada Caroline Daughter F 2 1909 Lanc Crumpsall

4 children all living so one missing?

Births Sep 1908
Sass Ada Caroline Prestwich 8d 331


1901 census - household transcription
Person: SASS, Beatrice M
Address: 29, Slack Road, North Manchester
SASS, John W Head Married M 26 1875 Mechanic In Bleach Wks
Hull Yorkshire England
SASS, Beatrice Wife Married F 24 1877 Winton Green England
SASS, Beatrice M Daughter Single F 3 1898 Barns Green Mchr England
SASS, William E Son Single M 2 1899 Crumpsall England
HAMER, Ada Sister-In-Law Single F 25 1876 Winton England

Marriages Sep 1896
Hamer Beatrice Caroline Chorlton 8c 1480
SASS John William Chorlton 8c 1480

Note John William G in 1911 census.
Variation in year of birth 1869-1875
Same address.
parents marry in lancashire

I think this could be his birth
Births Mar 1865
SUCH John William Gibson Hull 9d 188

This would correspond

Household Record 1881 British Census
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Jonathon SUCH Head W Male 47 Hull, York, England General Labourer
Arthur SUCH Son U Male 18 Hull, York, England
John W. Gibson SUCH Son U Male 16 Hull, York, England
Edith SUCH Daur Female 14 Hull, York, England Scholar
Samuel SUCH Son Male 12 Hull, York, England Scholar
Anne SUCH Daur Female 10 Hull, York, England Scholar

LadyKira

Many thanks for looking at this one for me.

I must say this is interesting but I am not convinced.

It would seem more unlikely that the family would become Sass from Such than a boy brought up in a workhouse as William John called himself John William as he got older.

I think I found him on the 1891 in Manchester working as a blacksmith but living as a boarder at 1 Alfred St in Rusholme, Manchester

Where was John William Gibson Such in 1891?

It is a possibility though. Note the name in 1911

John William G

And believe me I have seen greater variations in one persons name on one document but definitely talking about the person.

They spelt how they said it or heard it said.

I agree it is a possibility.

Could you send me the original 1911 image please so I can see it for myself.
If so I will PM you my email addy.

It is also a big coincidence that there is a Sass of the right age born in Hull
and on 3 census it states where born Hull all with the name Sass.

Where was JWG Such in 1891?

It is so frustrating.

Many thanks for your help.

Simon -- you do have the marriage certificate? --

Marriages Sep 1896
Hamer Beatrice Caroline Chorlton 8c 1480
SASS John William Chorlton 8c 1480


And it says father Frederick Sass, tailor? and the age and occupation it gives for JW are ... ?

I'm not convinced by the Such-s either. But the initial "G" in 1911 (assuming that's a correct transcription) is itself interesting. It isn't there on the marriage record.

JC

I have just spoken to my Mother in Law who has the marriage cert.

She says it states name John Willam Sass
Occupation Blacksmith
Father deceased Occupation Not Known

No mention of initial G

On the 1891 census it gives JW Sass Occupation as Blacksmith.

But it does show that there is often more than one possibility and we should not jump to a conclusion without collaberating evidence or we would all end up with fantasy trees.

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
Name: John William Sass
Probate Date: 10 Jan 1924
Death Date: 17 Dec 1923
Death Place: Manchester, England
Registry: Manchester





Sass John William of 9 Crystal Street Queen's Road Harpurhey Manchester died 17th December 1923. Administration Manchester 10 january to Beatrice Sass widow Effects £250.00