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Ah ok - not the first Norman then.
So sad that so many children died early in those days.

no i don't know were he his ,sad to think of him on his own somewhere

hi jan,julie&ann i have sent pm's to you

in case any of you want to know there whereabout's here is there addresses.
21 brunswick st-1905.
12 park st -1906-1909.
12 court 2 king st-1910-1912.
32 cromwell st-1912.
20 taylor st-1913-1915.
no records-1915-1917-possibly due to war?
23 cardinal st 1918-till mary died 1960.
she was recorded as elizabeth until 1939 then went back to mary.

hi ,
just a thank you to all the people who helped me sort out this mystery.
i have just finished updating my tree,i am now going to look to see if i can find out what happened to,
thomas hinchliffe jones born 1887 in oldham,&
john edward jones (jack)born 1902.
once again thank you to everybody,
regards martyn

Hi Martyn
Please keep us posted on anything new & just ask if you want any further help looking. It's been a long journey & it's not over yet!
Good luck.
Julie

This one has been quite a challenge which makes it interesting research. Hope we have it all right now. As Jooleh says, keep us posted and let us know if you want more help.

hi julie&ann,
hope you are well,from what i can find up to now,(zero),
i may be calling for some help,i can find nothing about these two after 1911 census,to be honest i have mainly been looking for thomas,
martyn

hi ,the info i would like to find is for,
thomas hinchliffe jones born 1887 in oldham mmn davies,
also john edward jones (jack) born 1902 mmn manning ,also born in oldham,
these 2 are on the 1911 census living with john edward snr,
after this i can find no marriage or death for them.

any help would be gratefully recieved

hi jan,ann&julie.
after searching for 2 day's & finding nothing,i only see 2 options,emmigration or ww2 death,any other suggestion's i could try

forgot to say,on family search i found the wedding of john&elizabeth, also florence's christening,
on 3-10-1900,at st michael's church,coppenhall,which is a part of crewe,it names john &elizabeth as parent's.
it must be a recently put on the site

n for maureen

nudge up for linda,

well it has been a year now and this is what i have found out.

mary my g grandmother was born in ireland 1876 in kilbeggan,i have a copy of her christening,she was christened in the next village i also have her other sibling's also.
when she married peter leicester in 1898 she lied about her father's name also she lied about her surname,
she never married john edward jones as he was married to elizabeth
( nee cropper)they never divorced,
when my grandfather was born she used elizabeth (nee cropper) on his birth certificate, i think this was because john edward was away at war,she must have been his next of kin,using elizabeth's name would mean she would get a pension if anything happened to him,i cannot varify this as i have not been able to view his record's, his must have been destroyed in the 2nd war,it is the only explanation as to why she used cropper on the birth cert of norman born 1915,
as for john edward i cannot find his birth as it was a very popular name around the time he was born,i think his mother anne was not married so i cannot go anywhere with him,

i am not going to be able to research these 2 any further ,so i think this line will stop for a while now as you can only keep going over the record's for so long,
i have posted this to update all the kind people who got all sort's of detail's for me on this thread,just wanted you to know i have been trying to sort this out but must admit defeat.

thank's sue

Thanks for the update ,it's taken me all evening to read through it again!!(well husband was watching golf on t.v!)

I don't see a likely marr for John E Jones and May ?, so I'm wondering if the following two entries got confused when they filled out the 1911 census on page 1 of this thread:

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JONES John E CROPPER Elizabeth H Oldham, St. Mary Oldham CE235/29/65

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1899
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
JONES May Oldham Below Town Oldham CROPPER OBT/222/415

Note Oldham St Mary was C of E.

hi mgnv,
may was the daughter of john & elizabeth but they were not together by the time the 1911 census was taken,john was living with mary & they had already had quite a few children,there are lot's of twist's and turn's with my ggrandparent's,mary seemed to be covering her track's for some reason,i know she came to england from ireland in 1888 aged 12yrs,very young to leave home but she is on the 1891 census as a nurse,she was living in oldham lancashire,she lived there till she died,
thank you for posting the info.
regard's sue

Yeah Martyn - I missed a block of 10 pages of this thread, incl p 18 where gene (I think) says May on 1911 is a mistranscription of Mary.

Some odds and ends - 19 GBP fee from vicar - that's not strictly correct, I think, and it's actually 2 fees - 7 GBP for the m.cert which he has to charge, and a search fee which he has the option of charging - the fee scale is set by law.

Journeyman - as pointed out comes from the French root journee - jour=day in modern French. There are several related words now in English - journeyman - a (skilled) worker originally entitled to be paid by the day; - journey - originally, a day's travel; - journal - a daily record. Also diurnal - the daily cycle. On the Quebec census, Ag Labs are called Journaliers as they did the daily farm chores. Incidentally, my dad was quite proud that he was a journeyman tool and die maker, even though he never followed that trade for the last 35 y of his working life. He was apprenticed to a guy who helped make the first turbine, When my dad got his tradesman's ticket, his master gave him one of the original blade paatterns which my dad kept until he died. I've still got a couple of his apprenticeship test pieces - a depth gauge and outside callipers.

no such thing's as appenticeship's now,not like when i was leaving school.

I am posting on the thread to let all know that I have found the conection that links my great grandparents mary & john.
I have a book about the 24th Manchester regiment (known as the Oldham pals ) this book was written in 1994 so I had to wait for one to come up on ebay.
as johns ww1 records were destroyed I could not get any info on him,well the book list his details and also his address,
it is the same as the one on my granddads birth cert,so this is the connection I have been looking for.
mary used his official wifes name to register the birth,i think this was so she could get his war pension etc if anything happened to john.

regards sue