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Hi Janey, I wish I knew - the marriage to Crew was 10 years after my father returned to England(1938). Australia was a long way away in those days - maybe she claimed annulment on absence. I have tried to find out but without success. The other,even bigger question, is was there a child from that obviously brief association - they were not toether in the 1933 electorial roll.

Harold - either they did get a divorce, or they *both* committed bigamy!

3239/1949 marriage
CREW HECTOR MALCOLM
BOWER MARIAN CAROLINE
ROCKDALE

Hi Margaret, I am assuming you are Madmeg - to do this you have to be.

Yes, you are right I should do Jack Harrison. Afterall he was Grandad to Margaret, Sheila's mum. And who knows, he might actually be Sid's dad - though to be honest they say Margaret (my mother-in-law) is spitting image of Winefred who must surely be William's daughter at least.

Also people do, indeed, react differently. This Ancestry threw up much worse on my side.

My father and his parents were in Australia (Parramatta, NSW) during the 20's and 30's. Some months ago I was tracking them and came across the Australian Electoral Roll. It is not as detailed as our census system but does say who is living in a house of voting age. In one house I found my grandparents Harold & Mary Louisa Bower and, of course my dad, Jack, But there was also a Marian Caroline Bower. Once I'd picked myself off the floor I calmed down and remembered that lots of Bowers had gone to Oz and NZ - she would just be a cousin stayng with them. My daughters were not satisfied with this and pounced on it, and they soon found a 1930 marriage certificate of Jack Finch Bower and Marian Caroline Bower in Parramatta. So the search is on and 2 vital questions are to be answered. Firstly, was there any children from this brief relationship and secondly, did Dad legally get a divorce before returning to England (1938) and marrying my mum who as far as we are aware knew nothing about this. So far all our attempts have failed.

I thouht this was great- the sly old bugger, but my sister was upset - not the dad she knew -as you say different people!

Hi Margaret, I am assuming you are Madmeg - to do this you have to be.

Yes, you are right I should do Jack Harrison. Afterall he was Grandad to Margaret, Sheila's mum. And who knows, he might actually be Sid's dad - though to be honest they say Margaret (my mother-in-law) is spitting image of Winefred who must surely be William's daughter at least.

Also people do, indeed, react differently. This Ancestry threw up much worse on my side.

My father and his parents were in Australia (Parramatta, NSW) during the 20's and 30's. Some months ago I was tracking them and came across the Australian Electoral Roll. It is not as detailed as our census system but does say who is living in a house of voting age. In one house I found my grandparents Harold & Mary Louisa Bower and, of course my dad, Jack, But there was also a Marian Caroline Bower. Once I'd picked myself off the floor I calmed down and remembered that lots of Bowers had gone to Oz and NZ - she would just be a cousin stayng with them. My daughters were not satisfied with this and pounced on it, and they soon found a 1930 marriage certificate of Jack Finch Bower and Marian Caroline Bower in Parramatta. So the search is on and 2 vital questions are to be answered. Firstly, was there any children from this brief relationship and secondly, did Dad legally get a divorce before returning to England (1938) and marrying my mum who as far as we are aware knew nothing about this. So far all our attempts have failed.

I thouht this was great- the sly old bugger, but my sister was upset - not the dad she knew -as you say different people!

I'd already sussed that out Harold.

Everyone is different of course, and the feelings of living people must be respected, but believe me we all have far more illegitimate births amongst our ancestors than we originally imagined - in fact I'm almost coming to the conclusion that there was something wrong with them if they didn't have at least one illegitimate child! My g grandfather had 3 children with his second wife before he married her, apparently still married to his first wife (who has never been found Janey!).

I've 2 jailbirds as well - so join the club!

We can't do anything about it and we don't know why it occurred. There's one branch of my family who were clearly all drunkards for several generations. No wonder the women shacked up with a kinder husband. There's also lots of stories of women having what we now know is post-natal depression and their husbands finding a new "mother" for his kids cos he didn't understand his wife's problem.

None of it is to be ashamed of - I find it fascinating, but others find it upsetting and embarassing.

So, if your wife's family believe that Jack Harrison was a decent bloke, I'd personally put his ancestors in the tree as well, cos he must have had a significant influence on their lives.

Happy hunting.

Margaret

Thanks Madmeg - yes you are right and I guess we will never know for certain.

Now about the other matter yes I am sorry I did make a mistake. They were with William Worrall in Adwick 1901 but she moved with the younger children to Manchester to be with Jack Harrison in 1911 and there the deception starts. I have to be careful because my mother-in-law and 2 brothers (John Sidney's children) are still alive. But the secret was uncovered only on John Sidney's death in 1982 when his death certificate revealed he was in fact not Sid Harrison but John Sidney Worrall (confirmed when I obtained his birth certificate). Were they married - who knows - they were together when William died in 1912. the children, probably Williams, were brought up as Harrisons.

So little Annie had a turbulent life right from the beginning which is probably why we are having so much trouble with her now

Unfortunately it will have to involve a bit of judgement as the evidence isn't as good as we'd like.

If we assume Joseph was a local fella, there is only the one that fits, and in 1901 he's a plasterer, and his family are a mixture of gardeners and builders.

The Hannah in 1851 has a plasterer father, might be how she met Joe.

We can't do any better.

Now a few things are bothering me about your Annie. Is this the family in 1911?

HARRISON, John Head Married M 32 1879 Labourer Manchester Lanc VIEW
HARRISON, Annie Wife Married
11 years F 36 1875 Sale Cheshire VIEW
HARRISON, Mona Daughter F 10 1901 Manchester Lanc VIEW
HARRISON, Annie Daughter F 7 1904 Manchester Lanc VIEW
HARRISON, John Sidney Son M 3 1908 Manchester Lanc VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
23637 Reference:
RG14PN23637 RG78PN1376 RD463 SD3 ED15 SN228

Registration District:
Barton upon Irwell Sub District:
Stretford EnumerationDistrict:
15 Parish:
Stretford

Address:
312 Third Street Trafford Park Manchester County:
Lancashire

But earlier you said in 1911 they were living in Ardwick. I know its not a million miles away but they are very different areas of Manchester.

The 1911 said they've been married 11 years. Did they in fact marry at all?

So should I take the Joseph Drinkwater with parents Michael and Jane as the chosen one or is that too big an assumption? Incidentally I did see that in the 1841 census a William Garner (but no Hannah) was living next door

What about the Hannah Garner with parents Thomas and Martha in 1851 Altrincham as identified by Janey. Is that my Hannah?

Hi I'm back - retired people are allowed to start late.

Continuing with this market gardening connection - are the names Drinkwater, Worrall, Garner still familiar names in that trade? Madmeg, you seem to know the area quite well, what do you think? Is there any evidence that any of the Hannahs were involved with market gardening? Did that show up in any of your extensive searches, Janey?

I know I'm grasping at straws but must try something and yes I will follow thru on the workhouse avenue

I'd go for that Joe Drinkwater if it were my ancestor. With a knife - oops, inappropriate comment.

Wish I could find a reasonable marriage for him or whereabouts or death. I think, Harold, you are going to have to search records from nearby towns, e.g. Stockport.

You could try finding the records of Knutsford Workhouse to see if there are any relatives connected with him. That's the safest other record we have so far.

I do think the Joseph Drinkwater whose father was a market gardener is about the only candidate for being the JD in 1901 in the workhouse who was a plasterer, and thus for your JD from the birth certificate.

-- I just realized I wandered off without clicking "submit" on this so I may have been overtaken by events. ;)

I wandered back to page 1 and wondered if Hannah Garner had died, and the father had remarried to Sarah by 1881 (Sarah is married in 1881), but no, Sarah is with hubby and Eliza in 1871.

Don't be too harsh on the lad, Janey.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Hannah Whitlow
Name: Hannah Whitlow
Year of Registration: 1867
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 477 (click to see others on page)

Spouse James Worrall (several Ancestry trees have him as James Ellis Worrall).

1851 England Census
about Hannah Whitlow
Name: Hannah Whitlow
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Altrincham, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Altrincham
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Wilmslow
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 115
Household Members: Name Age
John Whitlow 30
Elizabeth Whitlow 30
Hannah Whitlow 4

EDIT, I thought you were a bit hasty!!!

What a pity, and I was beginning to think we were there.

All I can say is there is a lot of Worralls in that area as I know from research into that thread. Annie's husband's father was John Worrall from Frodsham.

You know I am still seduced by the market gardening connection - I will try and follow that line but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Best regards and thanks to all of you for your help

aaargh, I take it all back!!

Marriages Mar 1867
Mellor Thomas Manchester 8d 477
WAITE Elizabeth Manchester 8d 477
> WHITLOW Hannah Manchester 8d 477
> Worrall James Manchester 8d 477

1871 in Newton, Lancs:

James Worrall 37
Hannah Worrall 23
Ellis Worrall 3
Annie Worrall 1 month
Fanny Whittam 11


Births Mar 1870
Worrall Annie Manchester 8d 353


The Worralls in 1891 are a huuuuuge coincidence - but a coincidence they seem to be.


This leaves us with *no* Hannah and Annie, except for the Hannah with Alice in 1871 possibly.

As you say Janey, always look at the image.

Hannah Coombs in 1891 has been called "Garner" by Ancestry's automated naming system purely because her mother's surname in that census is Garner. It is not actually Hannah Coombes's name. In all previous censuses, both Hannah coombes and her mother have the surname Coombes.

... Oh, for pete's sake, nobody actually looked at the image??

Elizabeth Garner in 1891 is no relation to Hannah Coombes, in fact.

She is in the next household altogether.

She is the first person listed, and shown as "mother" - evidently of John Taylor or perhaps his wife.

Ancestry has worked its usual ignorant magic, and not just put her in the wrong household, but altered the identity of Hannah Coombes, a simple neighbour, to match.

Hannah Coombes is not a Garner, she has no mother named Garner, and she has nothing to do with your Garners!

1851 in Altrincham:

Thomas Garner 41 >>> "plaster & painter"
Martha Garner 38
Alice Garner 11 >>> note name of sister
John Garner 8
James Garner 6
>>> Hannah Garner 3
Sigley Garner 1
Charlotte Burgess 24

Oh, come on, Harold!

The Hannah in 1871 already had a child -- so?? (Alice might have died very young and the death not been registered; can't say, but there's no recognizable trace of her after 1871.)

The Hannah, with daughter Annie, married to someone named WORRALL in 1881 (except they apparently didn't actually marry) -- they are a perfect match for your Hannah & Annie, and for the Hannah Garner in 1871.

And really, is the name Worrall -- the name of your Annie's first husband -- not just a little too much coincidence??

The Joseph Drinkwater, plasterer, in the 1901 is the same age as the Joseph in the 1871, born 1847, that I posted.

You're picking holes for no reason, in my opinion.

Yes please Madmeg, I am not there yet.

Below listed what is known for certain

1. In 1893 Manchester William Worrall marries Annie Garner - they have 4 children (a) Winefred Hannah1895, Mona 1900, Annie 1904 and John Sidney 1908. She re-marries Jack Harrison about 1910 and they take his name.

2. Annie Garner is born in Sale June 1872 to Joseph Drinkwater and Hannah Garner but takes Garner as her surname and uses it in subsequent marriage and says her father is Joseph Garner

3. Joseph is a plasterers labourer.

What we are not certain of is

(a) who are Hannah's parents and where are they from -there are at least 2 possibilities identified above -which one is correct
(b) who are Josephs parents and where are they from -again there are at least 2 possibilities identified above -which one is correct
I feel the answer is there staring at us particulurly with the interlinking of the Garners, Drinkwater,Garners and market gardening but we have not pinned it down