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Alice Hopwood's christening:

ALICE HOPWOOD - Christening: 28 AUG 1839 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England

which could well be this birth

Births Sep 1839
Hopwood Alice Manchester 20 466

That certificate would give her mother's name, which could make it possible to find a marriage, e.g.

Marriages Mar 1839
BRIERLEY Ann Manchester 20 370
GREENHALGH John Manchester 20 370
? HOPWOOD Thomas Manchester 20 370
PRIESTNALL Elizabeth Manchester 20 370
RANSLEY William Manchester 20 370
? SCHOFIELD Jane Manchester 20 370
WARBURTON William Manchester 20 370
WARE Ellen Manchester 20 370

The marriage certificate would give the parties' fathers' names and occupations, at least if they reported them.

If you then worked on the assumption that Thomas and Peter were brothers, which is what seems likely, you would have something to investigate, anyway!


Thomas and Jane's household in 1861 in Manchester, at least I would think:

Thomas Hopwood 52 - labourer
Jane Hopwood 50
Sarah Hopwood 14
Samuel Hopwood 11


This must be Thomas in 1851 ...

Thomas Hopwood 29 - occupation Hatter, born Denton, married
Samuel Hopwood 4

As I have had so many wonderful replies to my post I thought I should provide some more details of the family.

We do believe that the Peter Hopwood listed in 1841 census is "our Peter". It is just too much of a co-incidence that Mary, Joseph and Sarah are living with him. We have never had any information re Joseph's mother Mary, until we found her listed as Mary Turner on his death certificate. We understand that this would be her maiden name. Joseph was sentenced in Manchester in 1845 and was transported to Norfolk Island and then to Tasmania 1846/1847. He had two offences for stealing clothes. On his convict paper his father is listed as Peter and sister Sarah. There is a dash under mother. We have assumed that Mary either died before the 1851 census or left. We have not been able to find a marriage for Peter and Mary. We have not been able to find a birth for Joseph or Sarah. Joseph married Margaret Twohill, nee Coleman 1n 1853 and had two sons, John Richard and Joseph William - my husband is descended from Joseph William.

Until recently I did not know there were other Hopwoods listed at the same address on 1841 census. These are Thomas, Jane and Alice. I have since found a marriage for Thomas and Jane Bridge and a christening for Alice in 1839 at Manchester Cathedral. Unfortunately I do not know the relationship between Thomas and Peter.

The only other shred of evidence we have is in a letter written by Joseph, aged 77 - 80 years to his son Joseph he said he well remembers going down Deansgate to grandmother's house in Salford but again, we do not know if this was Mary's mother or Peter's mother.

We do have the family history of Joseph and his descendants in Australia and would be happy to share this information with any descendants of Peter and his family.
Barbara Hopwood, Adelaide

Okay, Barbara, one more time and that's it! It is absolutely maddening having to drag info around from inbox to thread ...



Thank you for all this info re Thomas and Jane. I think you have it all right - I found a marriage for a Thomas and Jane and think it is the right one - Thomas Hopwood with Jane Bridge and then the christening for Alice in 1839. Those dates all add up. As we now have a birth year for Thomas - he was listed as 25 in 1841 census but that could have been rounded down. If he is listed as 59 years of age in 1871 it is likely he was 29 years in 1841 - so birth year should be 1812. His birth place is listed as Denton, Lancashire so would it be possible for me to obtain a birth certificate for him? Would this give me his parents names? Now I realise that he might be too early for birth certificates. I think your civil registrations started in 1837. Maybe that is why you are suggesting marriage certificate for Thomas and Jane. I have just looked up my IGI find for the marriage of Thomas and Jane Bridge and it took place on 5th September 1836 so would a marriage certificate be available for them?



Certificates are only available once civil registration started in mid-1837, and only if the event was registered, which many weren't for a couple of decades.

That's why I suggested the birth cert for Alice, if it could be found -- or one of those other children in the later censuses, if the birth can be identified (a bit problematic given the inconsistency in stated ages).

For finding the registration info:

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

For ordering certificates once you find it:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

That would confirm the surname of Jane, Thomas's wife. If it was Bridge, and it was in 1836, then they had the extreme bad manners to marry exactly a year before civil registration started.

If another possible sibling could be identified, who was younger and married after 1837, that would be a possibility.

Keep an eye on FreeREG

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

There actually are quite a lot of ancient Lancashire Hopwood marriages and baptisms there now, but it will be a long slow process for the volunteer transcribers to get to you probably. If you are really eager, you can actually volunteer to transcribe records for the period/place that interests you!

Oh, and because I have no personal interest in Lancashire I never remember and don't know too much about, but lancashirebmd is a place to search.

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

and great, that goes back to 1837 only.

A William Hopwood married a Mary Bridge at Manchester Cathedral, 1842. Sibs marrying sibs?

Others more versed in Lancs BMDs may be able to help more here.

I keep meaning to ask: your header says Peter Hopwood was born in Stockport. Where does that info come from? I don't think we confirmed or refuted it.


And please please reply - to everyone - in the thread and not by private message! You see that we are all just having to come to the thread and copy your messages here in order to make the info available and discuss it.

From Barbara

"Thank you for your interest and response. There are many Hopwood hatters. I have found several when searching records in Manchester and Salford but I think we do have the right family listed in the 1841 census, Peter, Mary, Joseph and Sarah. It just seems too much of a coincidence for them all to be together. I do think it is likely Mary Hopwood died as on Joseph's convict papers of 1846/47 it lists Father - Peter, Sister - Sarah and there is a dash under mother. We only have Mary Turner written on the death certificate of Joseph in 1909. We are assuming that Turner is Mary's maiden name although we could be wrong.

Another family member has given me info from the 1851 census Peter Hopwood, 45 living at 20 Longshall Lane Stockport, head of the household apparently no Mary or Sarah but I do not know if there are others living in the household. By 1851 Joseph was in Tasmania and Sarah at age 24 would, in all probability, be married or moved away.

The Mary Hopwood who died in 1842 would seem a possibility - Mary was listed as 30 years of age in 1841 but she could have been 34 so that she would be 35 in 1842 - that's 3 year discrepancy but maybe they made a mistake. Are there any details with the lisiting for the death?"


on the assumption that Mary died between 1841 & 1845 is this a possible re-marriage for Peter

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1856
HOPWOOD Peter
OGDEN Nancy
Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)

I think it is probably not Jane Bridge that Thomas married as this is that marriage and occupation is wrong - tho interesting that one of the witnesses is a Hannah Turner, but just be co-incidence, it is not exactly an uncommon name

Marriage: 5 Sep 1836 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Thomas Hopwood - Bleacher Bachelor of this Parish
Jane Bridge - (X), Widow of this Parish
Witness: George Needham; Hannah Turner, (X)
Married by Banns by: W.W. Johnson Dep. Chap.
Register: Marriages 1836, Page 741, Entry 2223
Source: LDS Film 1565410

edit - is it possible that a bleacher is someone involved in a specific process of hat making

this is very much guesswork

1881
Andrew LEVER Head M Male 56 Stalybridge, Lancashire, England Painters Laborer
Martha LEVER Wife M Female 57 Stalybridge, Cheshire, England
Nancy HOPWOOD Boarder W Female 49 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Peter HOPWOOD Boarder Male 14 Manchester, Lancashire, England Painters Laborer
James HOPWOOD Boarder Male 10 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling 33 Clayton Lane
Census Place Bradford, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341958
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4015 / 49
Page Number 20

you should also look at the Lancashire Online Parish Clerks (OPC) project ........ several other counties are now also involved in trying to get parish registers pre 1837 on line

www.lan-opc.org.uk/




Janey ................... here's another site for you to tuck away into your memory bank. It can be great .................. or there can be nothing there that "you" want!




sylvia

Hi Janey,

I'm very sorry if I've been answering the posts privately and not in the proper way. I have never used this board before and I have no idea what the difference is between a thread and the inbox. I hope this is the right box to send this message to everyone.

Thank you for all the info you have given me - it will take me some time to go through it all and follow up all the websites.

In answer to your question - how did we know Peter Hopwood was born in Stockport. We were accepting the info given by a family member that they had found the 1851, 1861 and 1871 listings for Peter in the census documents. We only had the listing of Peter and no other members of the household. In the 1851 census it states Peter was born in Stockport. Last night a friend looked up the 1851 census listing for me and the other members of the household listed make it clear that this is a different family - the one mentioned by David in his post. In the 1841 census Peter is listed as born in the county (I think) I have difficulty reading the copy of the census information that I have, so that would mean he was born in Lancashire.

Maybe I need to concentrate on Walton-le-Dale and see if I can find any extended family in that area.

Barbara

Here you are, yes, you are in the right place now!

We should have established the Stockport business at the beginning. Those of us who have been around the block here know better than to accept the opening volley of info as gospel, and I think we have an example here. The first question is or should always be: where did the info come from, how do you know that, what verification do you have ...?

(Because we can't rely on people asking to say: my great-uncle now deceased who was working before the internet and left a hand-drawn tree behind said ...!)

I think looking for extended family around the same times is a good approach, myself. Finding people who share characteristics - birthplace, occupation, given names in the family, etc - and seeing whether any links can be found.

I really would try to get a birth certificate or two, for both Peter's and Thomas's children. Identifying their wives (the mothers shown on the certificates) would go a long way toward finding marriages and thus placing them geographically at a point before the censuses. If you were very lucky the marriage I suggested as a possible for Thomas:

Marriages Mar 1839
SCHOFIELD Jane Manchester 20 370

would turn out to match his children and that would give you his father's name, and you could work on connecting him (or not) with Peter.

Ahem. Search Trees -- for Hopwood, born in Denton. A couple of GR members have Thomas 1820; one also has Samuel 1847, his son. There is a page of results, running from 1780 to the present. You may have cousins still living in the home town. Heck, BT online has 16 results for Hopwood in DENTON {Manchester} - most in Stockport, but one in Denton proper.

http://www.thephonebook.bt.com

if you want to look.

I would certainly contact every member here who has Hopwoods born in Denton in their tree!

Aha. *One* Thomas Hopwood did marry Jane Schofield.


JANE SCHOFIELD
Spouse: THOMAS HOPWOOD
Marriage: 11 FEB 1839 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M005469

But there is no Peter Hopwood marriage in that batch.

This is the batch number for Denton births: C005142 - but it runs only to 1837. No births for Peter around his time, and no births with father Peter.

Manchester Cathedral baptism records in the IGI are broken up into many batches of narrow year ranges, you can take a look (copy and paste the link back together)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis
/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyLancashire_(L-O).htm#M

More Hopwoods than you can shake a stick at. I hold out hope that the birth certificate for that Alice I mentioned will be this one:

ALICE HOPWOOD
Christening: 28 AUG 1839 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father: THOMAS HOPWOOD
Mother: JANE
Batch No.: C097898

and confirm Jane's surname.

Just to add a Denton line of Hopwoods...

Birth/Christening, Lancashire, England, British Isles
Father: George Hopwood, Mother: Leah
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: C005142
[refine search] [Print]
Prepare selected records for download

International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 18
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
1. JOHN HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 14 FEB 1821

2. JOHN HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 22 APR 1821 Denton, Lancashire, England

3. MARY HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 02 OCT 1818

4. MARY HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 20 DEC 1818 Denton, Lancashire, England

5. GEORGE HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 19 JAN 1823

6. GEORGE HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 16 MAR 1823 Denton, Lancashire, England

7. FANNY HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 16 JAN 1830

8. FANNY HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 28 MAR 1830 Denton, Lancashire, England

9. THOMAS HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 28 FEB 1827

10. THOMAS HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 MAY 1827 Denton, Lancashire, England

11. JOSEPH HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 07 DEC 1824

12. JOSEPH HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 FEB 1825 Denton, Lancashire, England

13. ISAIAH HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 06 NOV 1831

14. ISAIAH HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 24 JUN 1832 Denton, Lancashire, England

15. WILLIAM HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 10 MAY 1816

16. WILLIAM HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 18 AUG 1816 Denton, Lancashire, England

17. JAMES HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 JAN 1814

18. JAMES HOPWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JUL 1814 Denton, Lancashire, England

Barbara

I may be going to the Lancs record office tomorrow (Fri). They have marriages at Manchester Cathedral up to 1837 & baptisms to 1851.

Is there anything you think it would be worth me looking for.

I've got a bit lost with all the Hopwoods found on this thread and wondered if there was a specific area you would like to concentrate on.

Thank you again for all the information. I have a lot to do.

Ann thank you especially for your offer of looking up at the records office. I am really interested in the Thomas Hopwood who lived in the same house with Peter in 1841 but I think he would have been born between 1812 and 1816. Sarah seems to disappear after 1841 but she would have been born in 1827. Peter was born between 1802 and 1806 (according to 1841 census listing. If you could find anything about these births that would be wonderful. I like Janey's suggestion that I contact some of the present day Hopwoods in Denton, could also try Walton-le-Dale for good measure.

Barbara

Ann, when I replied to you earlier I forgot that the records you acess are from 1837 onwards and all the people I mentioned were born before then. I will obtain the birth certificate for Alice Hopwood, born 1839 as that would seem to agree with the census listing for 1841 - she was 2 years of age. But of course, she may not be the right Alice. Janey has found a marriage for Thomas and Jane Schofield in 1839 and I found a marriage for Thomas and Jane Bridge. I guess either one might be the right Thomas. If there is any information for Sarah, Joseph's sister, that would be wonderful. According to my reckoning she would have been born in 1837 so she might squeak into the records.
I had a look at hatting processes and there is a process for bleaching although it seemed more common in the textile industry. Both Thomas and Peter were hatters.
Barbara

Ann, I'm not doing very well today - in my last message I mentioned that Sarah was born in 1837, well no, I have that wrong, she was born in 1827.

Barbara

Hi Barbara

Actually the records in the LRO are the other ways round UP to 1837 for marriages and 1853 for births at the cathedral.

I started looking for a Hopwood baptism in the Cathedral in 1826 but sorry soon gave up. After about 5 mins and 10 pages I had only reached 8th Jan! They seemed to be baptising a lot every day.

However - the ones where the date was on the IGI:-

Alice Hopwood 28 Aug 1839 d of Thomas & Jane , Thomas was a hatter so looks promising

24 Aug 1851 - William Sarah & Samuel - all children of a Thomas & Jane
I think they are 2 separate families. William & Samuel were consecutive in the register William b 21-3-1841 & Samuel b 3-3-1850. Father Thomas was a smith (did not specify what type)

Sarah appeared a couple of pages later b 14-2-1847 father Thomas was a HATTER

possibly they were the families of (A) a Thomas & Jane Bridge and (B) a Thomas & Jane Schofield mentioned in previous posts

I looked for baptisms at Walton-le Dale in 1826/7 but no Hopwoods. There was a printed record of baptism pre 1812 and there were several Hopwoods in there, including a Peter so it is a name that was in the area.

There is a death on ancestry for a Peter Hopwood in 1876 age 74 so looked for a will.
The Peter concerned was late of Gorton nr Manchester labourer who died 20-7-1876. Letters of admin granted at Manchester to Nancy Hopwood widow of 20 Lord Street gorton on 18 Dec 1876. That possibly is the Nancy I found in 1881 with children Peter & James (see a previous post)
Unfortunately the LRO only hold wills proved at Lancaster & Liverpool so could not look at the details of the will. Could be your Peter as he possibly by the age of 74 was no longer working as a hatter.

Hope this is of some use. If you want me to do more lookups I'm sure I will be there again in a week or two.

forgot to mention James

James baptised 8 Sept 1844 at man Cathedral s of Thomas & Jane, Thomas is a Hatter

also did notice a Sarah Hopwood age 30 on a passenger list to New Orleans in 1857 but there do seem to be a few of them around

That's terrific work there!

So I do really recommend going for the Alice Hopwood birth cert to get the wife's name, to settle which marriage it is, then if Schofield get the Hopwood-Schofield marriage certificate, and at least have some firm names of relations.

Hi Ann and Janey,

Thank you for all this info. and Ann, many thanks for taking your time to look up records for me. I do appreciate it. I am trying to find the GRO volume and page for the birth of Alice christened August 28th 1839. When I look in freebmd list it gives Alice as born in September - so am not sure if this is the same Alice. I would hate to think that there are two! We have the batch no. from the IGI - is that sufficient to obtain the certificate?

I think you are right re William and Samuel if father Thomas was a smith - they are a different family. It is possible that Sarah born 1847 and James born 1844 are children of our Thomas and Jane will have to see which Jane we have.

I found an article in Stockport Express, 2002 "Looking Back" in which it stated that in 1840 the felt hatting industry in Stockport was on the verge of collapse. "Hatters were put onto shop time and workers were said to be suffering 'great distress and destitution'.
A saviour was at hand in the shape of William Barber, who learned silk hat making skills and invented new machinery to turn the Christy factory around."

So I wonder whether Peter and Thomas were able to learn the new skills of silk hat making or whether they had to look for new employment.

Barbara

Barbara - the month names you see in the GRO ref aren't months, they're quarters.

"Sep" means the July, August, September quarter. Someone born during that period (or in June or even May) was registered in the third quarter, called "September" but covering the whole quarter. (Someone born in September, or even August, might also have been registered in the December quarter.)

So that one, that I posted way back and you are seeing in the index, is almost certainly the same one as in the baptism record!