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Yes,Barbara,I agree with you.

And it's FROSTIC!!!

Maureen

Hi Maureen

Yes FROSTIC
Thank for the reply
Regards
Barbara

Some of their marriages


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Marriages Mar 1909 (>99%)
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FLAMBERG Julius Mile End 1c 498


Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

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Marriages Sep 1914 (>99%)
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Flamberg Annie Rubenstein Whitechapel 1c 434

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Marriages Mar 1917 (>99%)
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Flamberg Jack Beaver Whitechapel 1c 279
Flamberg Jacob Beaver Whitechapel 1c 279

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Marriages Dec 1924 (>99%)
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Flamberg Esther Rosenberg Mile End 1c 655

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Marriages Sep 1933 (>99%)
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Flamberg Morris Beecham Stepney 1c 555
Flamberg Samuel Rifkin Stepney 1c 700

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Thanks Barbara

Julius was the eldest son of Freedman Flamberg, Annie, Jack and Esther were also children of Freedman. Morris Flamberg was my father.

Freedman was born in Poland and came to this country in 1893 aged 42.

I am aware of all those entries and have copies.

I must be thick but I still can't get to Frostie or as it is now Frostic Mansions via Ancestry. Can you please let me have an idiots guide.

Regards

Jeff

Hi Jeffrey
Go to 1901 census and just enter surname Hamberg then click search

Look down list until you come to Janie Hamberg
Click on view record at the side of her name

Now click on view image

You will then see the original hand written image and that they lived at 8 Frostic Mansions

At the top in the right hand corner there are two arrows pointing left and right you use these to go to the page before or the page after the one you have brought up

Hope this works
Regards
Barbara

Thanks Barbara and Satnav

I have now found 8 Frostic Mansions and I can say without any shadow of doubt that the person living there under the name of Hamberg is not Freedman Flamberg. I have searched for all the derivatives of Flamberg and have come up with a blank.

I am led to the conclusion that although Freedman stated on his daughter's birth certificate registered on 20 July 1910 that he lived at 8 Frostic Mansions, he was not there on 31 March 1901. Also I would strongly suspect that where ever he was on 31 March 1901 he would not have been able to fill in the Census form and probably just binned it. My reason for this is that he could not write his own name, speak, read or write English and neither could his wife Deborah. They were Polish Jewish immigrants who fled Poland during the Russian persecution of Jews in the then Russian Empire. The only language they spoke was Yiddish.

Their children at the time of the 1901 Census were aged 14, 10, 6, 4 and 2. The 14 and 10 year old were born in Poland and in any event they would not have been able to fill in a Census form, which I doubt their father would not have shown them anyway.

As he came to England in 1893 with his wife Deborah and two children he might also have been fearful of filling any official forms for fear of being taken way. So, it seems that we will never find a record of them in the 1901 Census. At least I have them in the 1911 Census.

My next task to to try to find out from where they came. This I fear will be an impossible task. I suspect that it was Warsaw and I believe he had siblings who all perished in the persecution by the Russians. In 1881 after Tsar Alexander II of the Russian Empire was assassinated, which was unfortunately blamed on the Jews, thousands fled to the UK and the USA.

Freedman's children are all now dead but there are grand children and great grand children of whom I am one. Freedman and his older children never spoke about life in Poland , they just tried to block it out, so there is very little information handed down. I have searched birth, death, marriage and the 1911 Census records of the Flambergs in the UK and that's fine. But I fear that any family tree will have to start with Freedman Flamberg ( which is probably not his first name anyway) born somewhere in Poland probably 1851.

I am extremely grateful for those who have contributed to my original query.

Thanks again,

Jeff Beecham formerly Flamberg

Jeffery

I understood the 1911 census was the first census people had to fill in themselves if they could. That is why its invaluable to look at the census image to see their handwriting.

Earlier census was filled in by the enumerator. Accents etc made it difficult to understand the correct names and so mistakes are made.

Flamberg with an accent could easily be Hamberg

Then the enumerators writing, faded paper has sometimes made it difficult for the transcribers to read hence mistranscriptions occur

Hi Jeffery
Have you looked on search trees at the top of the page
If not give it a try
Just put in the name Flamberg and then search there is a person on there called Michelle who has many of you names on her tree.
Sorry if you have already tried this
Regards
Barbara

are these your family??


Public Family Trees on ancestry.co.uk



Matches 1–2 of 2 Sorted By Relevance


Flamberg Family Tree
Public Member Tree
2 sources
Julius Flamberg
Birth: 1882 - Poland
Death: 1933 - London, England
Marriage: 7 Feb 1909
Spouse: Rachel Kolinsky

F: Menachem Flamberg

M: Unknown


Show siblings

Half siblings

Zalick Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Simon James Flamberg
1891 – 1983

Esther Flamberg
1901 –





lambert Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Jack Zalick Flamberg
Birth: 1890
Death: / - London


F: Monash Flamberg

M: Debora



The first tree is particularly interesting in that it implies that Julius had a different mother from the other children

Parents of the other children are:-

Menachem Flamberg
1844 – 1937

Debora Yitzak
1870 – 1936





sylvia

Hello Barbara

I have contacted Michelle Carpenter and she is related to Zalick (Jack) Flamberg, Freedman Flamberg's son through, I think, her grandmother, Miriam Beaver who married Jack.

She is unable to give me anymore information regarding Freedman.

Thanks anyway.

Hello Sylvia

Yes, there are related. Julius is my grandfather. Freedman married firstly in Poland to whom we do not know and they had one child, Julius born in Poland. After his wife died he married again in Poland to Deborah and the children of this marriage were Zalick(Jack) born in Poland, Simon James (Jim) born in Poland, Annie born on the boat bringing them to the UK in 1893, Morris, Samuel and Esther all born in England.

I don't know who compiled the tree but it does not agreed with the information that I have gained official records and family recollections. One point is that Menachem (Freedman) was not born in 1844 making him 93 when he died in 1937. On the 1911 Census his age is shown as 60. Also his age is shown on his death certificate in 1937 as 77. The ages of 93 and 77 were estimates taken from family members who did not have access to the 1911 Census.

Thanks anyway.

Nicola

Many thanks for that information, I'll contact them.

Jeff

It looks as though you might have supplied the information on Menachem!


from that tree:-


Flamberg Family Tree

Owner: sollybear

Menachem Flamberg

Birth
1844
in Kamfke (Warsaw), Russia

Death
14 Jan 1937

Parents & Siblings

Moshe Mordechie ()

No Mother

Timeline

1844
Birth
Kamfke (Warsaw), Russia

1 source citation :- Jeffrey Beecham Email 2001



sylvia

from www.familysearch.org

Individual Record FamilySearch™ Pedigree Resource File



Menachem Flamberg Compact Disc #56 Pin #105585 Pedigree
Sex: M

Event(s)
Birth: 1844


Death: 14 Jan 1937


Burial:

Edmonton Cemetary, London

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Parents

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Marriage(s)
Spouse: Debora Flamberg Disc #56 Pin #105620
Marriage:

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Other Marriage Event(s)
Divorce:


Divorce:

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Notes and Sources
Notes: None
Sources: Available on CD-ROM Disc# 56

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Submitter
Sol FLAMBERG
57 Kendal Drive Gatley, Cheadle, Cheshire, SK8 4QJ, United Kingdom

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Submission Search: 1209366-0213103123337
URL: http://www.flambergfamily.com
CD-ROM: Pedigree Resource File - Compact Disc #56
CD-ROM Features: Pedigree View, Family View, Individual View, Reports, Downloadable GEDCOM files, Notes and Sources.
Order Pedigree Resource File CD-ROMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About FamilySearch Pedigree Resource File
The Pedigree Resource File is a new lineage linked database of records available on compact disc containing family history records submitted by individuals through FamilySearch Internet Genealogy Service. Family information is organized in family groups and pedigrees and includes submitted notes and sources. Many charts and reports can be printed from this data. Each disc contains about 1.1 million names. With the publication of every five discs, a master index for those discs will be published and packaged with that set of discs. With the publication of every 25 discs, a master index for those discs will also be published and packaged with that volume of discs. Discs may be purchased as sets or volumes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please Note
Submitter information is provided to help in the coordination of personal family history research. Use of this information for any other purpose, including marketing, advertising, or commercial solicitation, is strictly prohibited.




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always consider the fact that he MIGHT have lied about his age on the 1911 Census



and that the information on a death certificate is only as good as the informant knows .... if the informant had been told that Menachem was 20 or so years younger than he really was, then that is the age put on the certificate.


A birth certificate does not have to be shown to the Registrar to prove the age of the deceased.



Only a warning not to be too dogmatic!


Most of us have ancestors who lied about their age ............... and he was a foreigner in another country, possibly a refugee from progroms, probably somwehat scared, and he might well ahv elied about his age when entering the country believing that a much older man might not be allowed.



Just a thought for you




sylvia

Sylvia.

Have you ever looked at GenCircles. Member has Flamberg tree put there in 2001 but very little on it and non of the names mentioned here.

However the member is using sollybear as e mail address

Quinsgran


haven't looked on GenCircle

............... I had found this tree on ancestry, with information that Jeffrey seems to have supplied, while decrying it in a posting on this thread!


at the same time I found the information on familysearch


Let Jeffrey do what he will with what I have found!




sylvia

Sylvia

Let me explain. The tree that you have found by sollybear (Sol Flamberg) of which I am well aware has been produced from sources of information that were not entirely correct. He is a great great child of Freedman i.e. he is my cousin's son. I have seen www.flambergfamily.com.

The only information I supplied Sol Flamberg was that of my father Morris Flamberg and myself. The information provided by Sol has been superseded by input from various members of the Flamberg family and I'm not sure that I 'am happy with your remark that I'm decrying the information put on the site and remarks such as ' let Jeffery do with what I've found' are not particularly helpful'.

Quinsgran

I don't recall putting any information on Gene Circle and I am not using and never have used sollybear's email address. Where on earth did that come from?

It is regrettable that there seems to be a certain hostility towards me.

Based on information supplied on these posts I have now looked again at the copy of the handwritten census form for the 1901 Census and am happy that Monassch Hamberg is my great great grandfather Menasseh Flamberg. It was the typed transcript that threw me and after careful comparison with information that I have the names and dates of birth coincide. Judah is Julius, Lilly is Selig (Zalick), Tinha is Sinha (Simon), Hannah is Annie, Moses is Morris and Samue is Smauel.

I am grateful for Barbara for pointing me in the right direction and to a cousin of mine who confirmed that it was the man of whom I am looking.

Menasseh's age is shown as 50 in the 1901 Census which agrees with the age of 60 shown on the 1911 Census. I am aware that the age on the death certificate is an estimate. Sol Flamberg entered his date of birth as 1844 from information supplied to him at that time. As I have said the information on that site was to some extent hearsay and has not been corroborated. The research that other members of the family and myself have since carried out indicates that Sol Flamberg's family tree has inaccuracies and he is the first to admit that!

The only information with which my original post was concerned was that I was unable to find the record of Freedman Flamberg on the 1901 Census. I had various first names and surnames and the possible address, although I had Frostie and not Frostic. The former spelling was taken from a birth certificate which I admit did not seem clear to me.

Perhaps I should have taken Qinsgran' advice given in his posting 15 January 2010 00.56, earlier. It would have saved a lot of additional postings, some of which were helpful and others not so!

Jeffery

Hi Jeffery.
Please dont feel there is hostility towards you. Members are really trying to help.

Check out GenCircles for yourself. Perhaps cousin Sol has added the information such as it is. (Non of your family are mentioned)

Hi Jeffery
Just to wish you good luck with your research and please let me know if you require any further help.
Very best wishes
Barbara

Quinsgran

I don't mean to ruffle feathers but one post seemed to me to display some degree of irritation and I took that as animosity.

I have looked at Gencircle and I am unable to access the particular information to which you refer. Please can you guide me in.

Jeff

I know I will regret this:
You wrote:
I have now found 8 Frostic Mansions and I can say without any shadow of doubt that the person living there under the name of Hamberg is not Freedman Flamberg. I have searched for all the derivatives of Flamberg and have come up with a blank.

And my friend Sylvia wrote:
Only a warning not to be too dogmatic

Maureen
(who still wants to slap you silly and use the F word)
Great work,Barb!

Maureen

I'm aware of my comments earlier and I've set the record straight. As I said I only looked at the typed transcript and from that there was no way could I confirm that what was written thereon was anything to do with Freedman Flamberg and family. I will confess that I am new to searching the records and did not see the significance of looking at anything else in spite of Quinsgran's earlier prompting.

I am very grateful to all who have helped me, but what I deplore is what I feel is a sense of smugness and irritation shown by some postings.

Regarding earlier posts referring to an email of 2001 from me on a site edited by Sol Flamberg. I have now retrieved a copy of that email and it was sent to Sol by me, but I am appalled that he published it as a source of information. That email was personal and I was merely setting out information that Sol Flamberg had given me so that it was in a more logical order. I was not in a position to verify the information in that email and had no intention of doing so at that time. It was left to Sol Flamberg to continue with his research.

I know this has nothing to do with any of you, but I think it goes to illustrate that in any recording great care should be taken that original sources are acknowledged and in particular where individuals are quoted as a source of information permission is obtained from them first before
publishing. And to those you seem to make a habit of 'helping' enquirers I would suggest that you tread gently and refer to previous snippets of information in more moderated tones. And to type in upper case is the height of bad manners as it signifies that you are shouting.

Once again there have been one or two who have been extremely helpful and courteous, namely Barbara and Quinsgran and to them I am extremely grateful.

Jeffery