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Remember that name "Redman"?


Florence's mother in 1881:

Name: Jane Murphy
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Daughter
> Father's Name: Redman
Mother's Name: Hannah
Where born: Northfleet, Kent, England
Occupation: Servant

Civil parish: Gravesend
Street Address: 4 Pipe Court

Redman Murphy 43 - born Cork, Ireland
Hannah Murphy 38 - born London
Jane Murphy 14
John Murphy 9
Michael Murphy 6
Sarah Murphy 3
County/Island: Kent


Florence's mother's birth:

Births Dec 1866
Murphy Jane N. Aylesford 2a 386
- Northfleet is in North Aylesford district

Jenny, you haven't gone to sleep on me, have you?!?

Come back, come back! ;)


There are four GR members with John Carruthers born 1843-44 in Woolwich in their trees!

And it looks like somebody has your Florence!!!

Search for Carruthers born 1900 +/- 10 years in Kent:

Florence 1893 GRAVESEND Kent England

The same person has:

John 1890 GRAVESEND Kent England (2 people have him)
Beatrice 1895 GRAVESEND Kent England (May B Clarke, in 1901)
Henry 1889 GRAVESEND Kent England

- also yours.

Someone else has:

Dorothy 1905 Gravesend, Kent (Doris Clark, in 1911)


!!!!

Hi Everyone, Yes, I did look at the image on 1911 census. Definitely-Henry Clark, and signed by him as Henry Clark. He is a house decorator(painter), and who is this 'Mary Clark' aged 5 months, born Gravesend, grand-daughter????

Looks like Janey \Canuck is on to something.

Cheers, June

That "Mary Clark" is identical in every way to Florence's daughter Elsie Gwendoline:

Births Dec 1910
CLARK Elsie G Gravesend 2a 623

I mean, why not give her two perfectly good names, and then before she's even 6 months old, call her Mary??

Sorry Janeycanuck,
Had to sort current family out, much to my annoyance. Mind you I was going to try & follow if Florence had married previously to marrying Frederick Victor Church.

Wow, Wow, Wow. You are a star, ive only browsed information but it looks like youve cracked it! I dont think I would have ever got there. You must have been doing this for hours!!! Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou.

Got to try & take it all on board now & add it to my tree. Think ill put pen to paper to try & lay it out correctly. I have to admit im not the best person with sorting & numbers but ill give it a go. It may take me a while so please forgive me if I dont post anything while I get it sorted.

So my skeletons dont start at Florence then? Why am I not surprised? Im hoping that someone might have the answer. Ill read the posts more carefully now & do as suggested.

I still cant believe you have probably solved this mystery Janeycanuck.

Thankyou again.

Jenny x

It's my job, and dang, I'm good at it. ;)

Actually, it isn't my job, of course. But here's the funny thing. Back about 20 years ago, when I already had two careers, and of course long before we in Canada had any access to genealogy databases like these, a friend of mine did one of those career aptitude/interest things on me. It turned out that the two careers for which I was best suited were almost exactly the two careers I was already working at ... and it said if they didn't work out, I should give professional genealogist a go!

Then they invented these databases, and well, me and a search engine, we wuz made for each other.

Fortunately all the major stuff is all laid out together on page 3 of the thread here, and I tried to lay it out so it was easy to follow and tie up as you go along.

Enjoy!!

Janeycanuck,
Ive got paper copies of info now.

Just emailed those people using the parameters you gave me. I will post how i get on here! Never know maybe one of them may know the story behind name change! Bet its my sides fault!!!! It usually is.

Why does my family have to be so complicated? Please tell me that chances are things might run more smoothly after this one so I dont have to bother people on the community so much! Surely ive had my complicated one now?

Well off to bed now & thanks ever so much again.

Jenny x

If you want complicated, you could always have a gander at my Moncks. ;)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=976217

"Ernest Monck - Australia sojourn c 1885-1895"

Unfortunately, it's told kind of bass-ackwards.

I haven't proved that the younger brother of the 4th Viscount was the father of my gr-grfather and his sister yet ... but I'll be sure to post when I do!


Will be very curious to hear the outcome of contacts -- I do hope your messages get through.

I've just read the whole thread


Janey ........ you're really good at this!!!


What a saga.

Hi again Janeycanuck,
The last post has put that you are good at this. I just wanted to add thats the understatement of the year. I would never have found this without your help. i was going to follow the possibility that Clarke was Florences married name by a previous marriage or her mothers name & that her mother was not married! But it would have taken me forever.

I am patiently waiting for replies from people you mentioned who have those names on their trees. So excited now though as it has opened up a new chapter.

As you are my mentor now, could I ask your advice please? When I add the information to my tree which surname do I go with? Or is there a way to do both? Both would be great because then future hot matches will come through for both names. I saw on someone elses tree they had something called a copy! Have no idea what this is but in my very basic knowlegde I was wondering if this was a way of putting both surnames on!

Also as I start to check baptisms & marriages on medway city ark am I still likely to be finding them under Clarke or the new name. Trying to remember what you put last night but I think you said official things would still be under Clark(e). I will double check both surnames anyway just to be sure.

Well no replies as yet but will keep you posted!

Got so many questions now. Some may never be answered. Like did Florence ever live with Frederick Victor Church as man & wife before he went off to war? Maybe they both lived at her parents for a while after they married. Sad story if she never did! i know they didnt have long together but I guess this was the case with many people of that generation with the war! makes you realise how lucky we are.

Jenny x

Hi everyone. I have some news!!!! (Typed this out 4 times & lost it! Ahhhhhh!)

Thanks to Janeycanuk I have been digging around the censuses for John George Senior & Junior. It appears I may have discovered why John George prefered to use Clark(e) as his surname rather than Carruthers.

John George Senior was boarding with a family called Edwards in 1871 Census, who had a daughter the same age called Margaret. Thanks to Janeycanuck I know these two got married Dec 1871.

They appear to have had John George Junior Sept 1868. He appears on 1871 census with his Grandparents Richard & Martha Clark(e) in Aylesford, Kent. So it looks like he was born before their marriage & was farmed out to Grandparents. Probably pregnancy covered up too! Need to check baptism for parents to confirm Margaret is the mother but its looking that way!

John George senior is on 1881 census with this wife & their children after marriage but still in Gillingham so guess they couldnt take John George Junior back cos of questions!

John George Junior is on 1881 census with his Nan, now a widow at same place. on 1891 census he is married to Jane in Gravesend, Kent., which I can confirm cos Janeycanuck already gave me this info!

So im guessing he took his Grandparents name Clark(e) as they brought him up as their own, at least from 2 years oild but probbably from birth, although dont know how to prove this!

In 1881 john George Junior is in Gravesend, Kent with wife Jane & children of his own. Only a stone throw from his parents in Gillingham if they were still there! They were 10 years earlier. I guess they never made up for what happened but thats a story I may never know. It would be great if I could find out if they sorted things out but thats not something that going to be documented!


Need to check baptism to confirm mother of John George Junior but what a story!!! And I thought Florence was complicated!!!!

Jenny x

Hang on now!

If JG Jr's parents were Carruthers and Edwards, he couldn't have had Clarke grandparents! Unless the Clarke grandmother was a Clarke by a second marriage; that's a possibility.

I suspect more likely JG Jr was the child of a different relationship of JG Sr's, with a Clarke. I hadn't had any luck finding the grandmother in the previous census, though ...

Ah. 1861, finally:

Name: Martha Clark
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Richd
Where born: Staplehurst, Kent, England

Civil parish: Chatham
Registration district: Medway

Richd Clark 42
Martha Clark 42
> Charlotte Clark 16
> Mary Clark 11
> Martha Clark 9
Zeberier Clark 8
Thos Clark 6
Racht Clark 4
Joseph Clark 3
Amy Clark 2 Mo
John Natt 17


One of those girls has to be the mother of John George Carruthers born 7 years later, in 1868. Or there could have been an older daughter not in the 1861 household.


1851

Richard Clark 39 - farm labourer
Martha Clark 32
Richard Clark 11
John Clark 9
Charlotte Clark 6
> Esther Clark 4 (more likely deceased by 1861 than gone from household)
Mary Clark 2
Martha Clark 2 Mo

I found 1861 census with these details:

William Carruthers Head Age 41 Shipwright born Sunderland, Durham
Martha Carruthers Wife 45 France
Jane Ann Carruthers Daug 14 Woolwich, Kent
John George Carruthers Son 17 Blacksmith Woolwick, Kent
William James Remedy Nephew 18 Ironship Builder Sunderland
John ???? Lodger 20 Seaman Sweden

So from info. above is John George Carruthers the senior who married Margaret Edwards? The daughter of the Edwards he lodged with in 1871? If its the right John George Carruthers it lists him as son to William & Martha so they are his parents & John George Carruthers juniors Grandparents that he lives with in 1871 & 1881 census. However only twist here is they are using carruthers as surname on William & Martha. Wheras they use Clark(e) when they have the grandson living with them!!!! So here I go again digging further!!!!

Jenny x


\Ignore this for the time being, think I got it wrong!!! Cant recheck til ive seen to family dinner. Grrrrrrr!

See the 1851 and 61 Clark/es I posted -- they are *Richard* and Martha.

(I absolutely cannot find a single one of them in 1871.)

I think the obvious explanation is the most likely one:

Your John G (Jr)'s father was Carruthers and mother was Clarke.

The Martha Clarke he is with in 81 is his mother's mother.

John G Sr married the daughter of the household where he was lodging in 1871, *after* the birth of John G Jr to himself and a Ms. Clarke.

You will probably have to get John G Jr's birth certificate to discover who the mother was.

So from the 61 census you found, it seems John G Jr's grandparents were:

maternal - Richard and Martha Clark/e
pagernal: William and Martha Carruthers

You said ignore, but I thought I'd sort it out. ;)


France! How interesting. Search for a marriage -- I'd bet 1845 in Sunderland, and her surname seems to have been corrected, and could be French, but I'd want to see the original, or a birth cert with her name on it.

Hi ,
Think I found them!!!

1871 Census High Street, Malling, Aylesford, Kent

Richard Clark Head Age 59 Farm Wagoner Born Hoo, Kent
Martha Clark Wife 52 Staplehurst, Kent
John Clark Son 29 Out Of Employement Cobham, Kent
Giberiah Clark Dau 18 (hard to read) General Servant St Margarate, Kent
Thomas Clark Son 16 Agricultural Labourer Luton, Kent
Rachel Clark Dau 13 Scholar Luton, Kent
Joseph Clark Son 11 Scholar Luton, Kent
Amey Clark Dau 9 Scholar Luton, Kent
John George Carruthers Grandson 2 (Note translator has put Clark but appears to be Carruthers on original transcript (hard to read though). Luton, Kent

1881 CensusWouldham, Kent

Martha Clark Head Age 62 Widower Born Staplehurst
Thomas Clark Son 25 Labourer Cement Luton, Kent
Amy Clark Dau 20 Housemaid Unemployed Cobham, Kent
John George Carruthers Grandson 12 Scholar Luton, Kent
John CoppinsBoarder 22 Labourer Cement Egerton, Kent
John Norris Boarder 28 Labourer Chalk Wouldham, Kent

On 1891 census John George Carruthers has his own place In Gravesend, Kent with his wife & Family!

Jenny x

Aaargh! Where are you finding

"1871 Census High Street, Malling, Aylesford, Kent"

??

Ancestry will not disgorge that no matter what I do!

I had just tried *anybody* *anywhere* born Luton 1850-1870, for instance, and still got nothing!

They seem to be just omitted from Ancestry.

Do you have the RG number stuff? I'd like to see whether the image is accessible.


(I did post the 1881s for Jr and Sr on the previous page.)

I dont have access to Ancestry. I just looked on here. Ddid a search with each name. Started with Richard & then viwed the transcript!!! went from there! Hope ive got it right now but seem to be the ones!!!!

Interestingly on 1861 Charlotte, Mary & Martha are not on 1871 census with the rest of the family, so does this help me? Could they possibly be the mother & have married by 1871 cant find them under maiden names for 1871!

Jenny x

Janeycanuk
You mentioned that the mother could be one of the daughters not on the 1861 census with the rest of the family. Well I checked 1851 with Richard & Martha & they have 2 sons not on 1861, Richard & John but no daughter!!! So does that narrow it down to Charlotte, Mary, Martha, Zeberier/giberiah??? The 1st 3 I cant find with family on 1871 although last 1 is but she isnt on census with family in 1881.

Jenny x

"So does that narrow it down to Charlotte, Mary, Martha, Zeberier/giberiah???"

It seems to! Can't assume that the one in the household in 1871 was the mother, unfortunately. The mother could be working elsewhere, married to someone who didn't want her son, or deceased.

Yes, I figured you hadn't got the record at Ancestry. ;) Because it really really isn't there.

From the record here at GR - I don't pay for access to records here - can you get the part that starts out

RG10/

and has piece, folio and page number?

I could search for that at Ancestry and see whether anyone else in the vicinity got transcribed and then work my way through the images to see whether the Clarks are there.