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Jenny, it would help if you'd say what you have done.

It has been suggested, and then I've asked twice: have you viewed the 1911 image?

The essential question is whether it has been transcribed correctly.

You may have viewed it and know that it was. But if you don't tell us, we don't know.

It was the name change that I was querying so I knew which name to look up on freebmd for her father! I have been told that censuses were often mis written & could be wrong! Especially as not everyone could read & write & it was often down to the clerk recording the information to get it right! Therefore the difference in the number Union Street could have made a difference in me going down the wrong path.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused!

When I saw another Florence nearby I was then wondering if I actually had the right florence. Again worrying I might not be following right lead.

If you knew the background to my Florence then you would understand why I am double checking everything!

Also I have been in touch with someone on genes who knows her father was put in an orphanage at 2 & Florence was his mother. There is a death record on freebmd which ties in with the little boy being orphaned at 2 years old! So again there is a very complicated story to this one for me!

Thanks for all your help. I will take a look tomorrow for things when I have a bit more time time.

Jenny x

This 1891 household:

Alfred J Clark 28 - general laborer
Amelia A Clark 22
Ellen A Clark 3
> Florance E Clark 7/12
- address 81 Charlotte St, Milton

is this household in 1901:

Alfred J Clarke 38 - Beerhouse keeper
Ellen A Clarke 33
Ellen A Clarke 13
> Florence Clarke 11
Alfred Clarke 9
Amelia Clarke 5
- address: Kentish Hotel beerhouse, Hawthorn St

and is this household in 1911:

CLARK ALFRED JOHN 1863 48 Milton Kent
CLARK AMELIA ANN 1868 43 Milton Kent
CLARK ELLEN AMELIA 1888 23 Milton Kent
> CLARK FLORENCE E 1890 21 Milton Kent
CLARK ALFRED GEORGE 1892 19 Milton Kent
CLARK MILDRED 1896 15 Milton Kent
CLARK ANNIE 1901 10 Milton Kent


One spare Florence down!

Jenny ... I don't get it ... it's a straightforward question:

Have you viewed the 1911 image for the Henry + Jane Clarke household?

If so, does it definitely say Henry for the father?

The other 1891 Florence is admittedly more of a puzzler:

Mary Ann Parfitt 42
Kate Parfitt 23
Henry Parfitt 17
Henry Clarke 28 - cement labourer, boarder
Ellen Clarke 19 - "
Florence Clarke 1 - "
- address 13 Union St

Marriages Mar 1891
Clark Henry Gravesend 2a 716
Parfitt Ellen Gravesend 2a 716

And no obvious birth for that Florence, as Parfitt or Clarke.

That Henry is 4 years older than the Henry in 1911, though.

Ah. Here is that Florence in 1901:

Mary A Parfitt 53
Emily Elvey 34
Catherine Parfit 36
Henry Parfit 26
Arthur Martin 15
Florence Clark 11 - granddaughter, born Gravesend
- 13 Union Street


The second spare Florence down.

Now we just go back a page from 13 Union Street, to find 7 Union Street.

In 1901, 7 Union Street is occupied by

Elizabeth A Bouie 60
William R Bouie 36
Frederick H Bouie 33
Caroline H Bouie 31
Albert E Bouie 28
Henry C Bouie 25
Edward R Bouie 23
Francis Fenton 51

The surname is actually Bowie, I'd say. No Clarkes, though.


The Clarkes on Peppercroft St (John G and household) are on page 30 of district 7.
7 Union St is on page 40 of district 7.

Just for an idea of proximity.

... I had checked the district description for the Peppercroft St Clarke household already and failed to notice Union Street ...
You can read it here:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=7814&iid=KENRG13_711_713-0309

HiJaneycanuk, I have been following this saga with interest. I looked on 1911 census for Jenny, and it is definitely 'Henry' not John George.

Also with the 2 different spellings, maybe it would be best for Jenny to start from the beginning, buy some certificates, and go on one step at a time.

I am interested, because this links with my family tree.

Cheers, June

Hi, I've just noticed that on one of Jenny's posts she says that on Florence's baptism cert. father is John G. and mother in ANN- am I mistaken, I thought her mother was Jane!!!!

So confusing!

Cheers, June

Hi everyone. Sorry I was tired last night.

Going to try & sort this out & answer questions as I go this time.

Firstly, no I havnt looked at 1911 census yet because hubby doesnt want me to use card. Still trying to track down somewhere local I can purchase credits. (realise that when I do this it may answer all my questions & be an error written from the original transcript).

Also, (can only put it down to me being tired) I said Ann was Florences mother on baptism. Its Jane as June kindly pointed out to me . Checked baptism again to be sure & parents are John George & Jane Clark. Dad being a labourer & living at 15 Ifield Street at time of baptism.

Rechecked marriage of Florence & father recorded as John Henry Clark. A Painter. Florence was 19 years old, address living at time of marriage 7 Union Street. 26 Dec 1912 was date of marriage. Also looks like witnesses are J.G. Clark & J.H Clark.

Going to look at replies I didnt manage to read last night now.

Can I ask if i buy Florences birth & marriage certificate will it have any more information than ive managed to get from medway city ark baptism & marriage records? Or will they contain exactly the same information?

Thanks Jenny x

Hi June! When you say you looked on 1911 census, you mean you looked at the image? That's been the big question - what the actual image says.

You just never know. People used all sorts of names that weren't their "real" names. The household itself in 1911 seems unquestionably the same one as in 1901, with the oddity of the father being the right age etc. but wrong name.

As far as Florence's marriage certificate, I'd somehow got the impression Jenny had that. For birth certificate, I think the problem is identifying the birth, or possibly buying several pigs in pokes - and even then not knowing when she gets the right one, since the parents' names seem to be an open question still.

At least we've now managed to sort out the three Florence Clark/es in the vicinity in 1891 and 1901.


Jenny - what a birth cert will give you that it seems the baptism record doesn't is the mother's full birth name.

That's a crucial bit of info here, for looking for a marriage etc. It may even be that Florence was not born a Clark/e - we haven't identified a birth in the GRO, have we? And that's the problem for getting a birth cert ...

Sorry June,
Thanks for helping me & rechecking the 1911 census for me.

Sorry Janeycanuk
Peppercroft Street Clark, cant check that district because I only belong to genes & says I would need to join ancestry to view it. Im guessing this isnt a feature genes can do then? Thanks for doing that though.

Can I assume that my Florences dob is 1893/4 as it says she was 19 years at marriage or was it possible to lie about age back then? I have found another genes member who has this realtion on her tree & dob recorded on that tree is 1894, although havnt asked where information came from yet. definately same Florence because marriage to Frederick Victor Church.

Thanks everyone.

Jenny x

Hi Janeycanuk,

Three times ive typed this out & lost it!!!! Fingers crossed this time!

Thanks for sorting the 3 Florences out for me.

I understand your point about birth certificate, it would have mothers full name on it & also how difficult it might be to find right one. No havnt found it so far. Was hoping freebmd might offer some clues.

I never realised that a family member might share the same name as another person, especially living in the same area!. I guess with such a common surname & popular first name its more common than you think! (just my luck). This is the 1st one ive come across though.

If this was you what would your next move be please?

Thanks again for all your hard work. I wish id never troubled you with it now. seems like im asking the impossible!

Jenny x

Thought id check the baptism record at medway city ark again. It says on there born Jan 19 1893.

Could this be recorded down wrongly back then? Was it just whatever the parents said?

Would anyone say that this record would be enough to go on to find a birth cerificate or is it not accurate enough?

Thanks Jenny x

It really was just what the parents said - as were birth certs. It's looking like the parents weren't married, if you ask me! So the birth could have been registered under a different surname.

Your dratted Florence never used a middle name/initial, did she?

These are the Florences registered in in Milton in Q1 1893:
[deleted bumph]

-- edit -- aargh, I was looking in the wrong place.

I wonder about identifying one of Florence's younger siblings' births and getting that certificate?

[deleted bumphs - read on]


I have to get some work done. ;)

I was warned off looking in my Grandads side, now looks like its because there are many skeletons.

I know my Grandad never got on with them & was looked after by his Nan. Wish Id listened more closely when he told his stories, cant remember nans name! He only ever mentioned his Mum Florence once & that wasnt a nice thing he said! Something to do with the amount of children she had by different Dads if you get my drift! She had one born out of wedlock then a further two by different Dads but still gave them the name Church because she remained using that name. Dads are on the baptism records though! But from what you say she could have made these names up too. Also found records on freebmd for a child before she wed frederick Victor Church.

This was baptism for that child:
dob 5 Nov 1910 baptised 9 Dec 1910 Living at 7 union Street
Elsie Gweldoline Clark.(spelling wierd)
Parents William & Florence. Dad private Cornwall Light Infantry.

Also found these on freebmd but dont know if they are relevant!

Marriages to Florence Clark

Dec 1907 William John Atkins to Florence Mary Clark

Dec 1917 William Bennett to Florence L Clark


She married frederick victor Church 26 Dec 1912 but he died in war 7 Oct 1916!!


Got to do work to. Hubby due in any moment.

Jenny x

??

dob 5 Nov 1910 baptised 9 Dec 1910 Living at 7 union Street
Elsie Gwenldoline Clark.(spelling wierd)
Parents William & Florence.



For good measure:

Births Dec 1910
CLARK Elsie G Gravesend 2a 623


Where is she in 1911??


The only Elsie in the household in 1911:

CLARK ELSIE 1903 8 Gravesend Kent

but the age matches this one:

CLARK MARY 1910 5 MONTHS Gravesend Kent

!!

You need to view that image, really!


Just editing to stick this here:

Name: CHURCH, FREDERICK VICTOR
Regiment/Service: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
Age: 27
Date of Death: 07/10/1916
Additional information:
Son of Mr. and Mrs. F. R. Church, of Fern Villa, 42, Havelock Rd., Gravesend;
husband of Florence Church, of 7, Union St., Gravesend, Kent.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=760117

So Florence was still with her parents while he was at war.

Okay, I've had my eye on these people in 1891, and I just hadn't followed through.


Name: John G Carruthers
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
> Where born: Luton, Kent, England
Occupation: Potman

Civil parish: Milton
Town: Gravesend
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Gravesend

John G Carruthers 22
> Jane Carruthers 23 - born Northfleet, Kent, older than John
Henry Carruthers 2 - born Northfleet
John G Carruthers 8/12 - born Gravesend


And now I find:

Births Mar 1893
Carruthers Florence Gravesend 2a 533


****** THESE ARE YOUR PEOPLE. *******

Now we just have to find out why the name change.

Births Mar 1889
Carruthers Henry John Gravesend 2a 512

Births Sep 1890
Carruthers John George Gravesend 2a 513

Births Mar 1893
Carruthers Florence Gravesend 2a 533

Births Jun 1895
Carruthers May Beatrice Gravesend 2a 548

Births Mar 1898
Carruthers Frederick Richard Gravesend 2a 570

Births Jun 1900
CARRUTHERS Amy Hannah P Gravesend 2a 598

Births Dec 1902
CARRUTHERS Elsie Maud Gravesend 2a 593

Births Jun 1905
Carruthers Dorothy Gravesend 2a 653

Births Dec 1907
CARRUTHERS Gladys Gravesend 2a 636



1891:

Henry Carruthers 2
John G Carruthers 8/12

1901:

Henry J Clarke 12
John Clarke 10
Florence Clarke 6
May B Clarke 5
Frederick Clarke 3
Amy Clarke 1

1911:

CLARK HENRY 22
CLARK FLORENCE18
CLARK AMY 10
CLARK ELSIE 8
CLARK DORIS 6
CLARK GLADYS 3
CLARK MARY 1910


Absolutely no question.

Florence's parents' marriage:

Marriages Sep 1890
> CARRUTHERS John George Gravesend 2a 873
HOUSDEN Charlotte Gravesend 2a 873
> Murphy Jane Gravesend 2a 873
STOCK Moses Gravesend 2a 873

Florence's father's birth:

Births Sep 1868
CARRUTHERS John George Medway 2a 438


I would have to bet this is his father's marriage, i.e. his parents (mother Clarke?) were not married:

Marriages Dec 1871
> Carruthers John George Medway 2a 798
Edwards Margaret Medway 2a 798
Philbin Walter Medway 2a 798
Taylor Emily Bridget Medway 2a 798

Florence's father's father in 1871:

Name: John G Carruthers
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England
Civil parish: Chatham

Florence's father's father in 1881

Name: John G. Carruthers
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England
Civil parish: Chatham

Florence's father in 1881:

Name: John George Carruthers
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Grandson - of CLARKEs
Where born: Luton, Kent, England

Civil parish: Wouldham
County/Island: Kent

Martha Clarke 62
Thomas Clarke 25
Amy Clarke 20
John George Carruthers 12
John Coppins 22
John Norris 28


Y'know, I might suspect a falling-out between JG Clarke/Carruthers, Florence's father, and his own father - or he learned the truth about his father at some point - and he decided to use his mother's surname socially/publicly, while still using his "official" name, Carruthers, for his marriage and to register his children.

It may even have led to him calling himself Henry rather than use the same name as his father, John George.

Some reason, anyway, for him dissociating himself from his father.