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I believe you have done it. Do you all agree? The John Herbert from Leeds, living Sheffield 1841 and 51 is living on Pond Street (as is Wilks on marriage in 1842). He has a likely son Wilk(e)s - the only Wilks Herbe* birth we have found - and he is a bricklayer. And what is Wilks Herbert's father on his marriage cert? - a bricklayer!

Thank you all for getting me to this. Esp not letting go of Wilks Herben not born in county (he perhaps didn't know what a county was, just knew he wasn't born in Sheffield) and for hammering home the Pond Lane/Street. I don't really think I will find anything better to fit the bill.

Now to find where he disappeared to after siring Sarah Ann, and where the happy couple were in 1851 (less important) but as I haven't found a marriage for Sarah to William Turner, maybe Wilks was still alive for some years. Maybe he went to the States or off to war or simply changed his name.

I'll have a look at some of the other Herberts suggested along the way.

Of course, youngest child Eleanor b 1839 might be on Free bmd to give mother's maiden name.

You have all done a lot of work. Sorry I didn't get it all right in the beginning.

Margaret

Margaret.
I think the details fit and would be happy myself to accept it.

Its been a great search

Oh, no, seriously??

I have both those images open still, and I DIDN'T LOOK AT THE *** ADDRESS???

Sometimes it does take more than one head indeed. ;)

Yes, I do believe "I" dunnit. !


Oh, btw, in 1841 John Herbert on Pond St is living next door to a cutler ...

... and I almost thought we were all incredibly dunderheaded - in 1841, Wilkes and John are both shown on page 12 of district 9 ... but haha, one is in Sheffield Park and the other in Sheffield South ... just a crazy coincidence. ;)

Hi Janey

Would have to find old maps, there is a site that does them. I can't find a Pond Lane existing now, but Pond Street and Pond Hill (run into one another) are still there today. I also noted on 1841 (I think) that the next road covered after the Herberts house was Arundel something, and that is in the same area, cos I parked there on Saturday! Pond Lane might be a mistake on the mariage cert, or so tiny as to not have been listed separately, likely demolished now, or was flooded at the time! Pond's Forge is a (new) busy area with lots of theatres, restaurants, leisure centre etc. now, probably so called after a Steel Forge on the site. None of that area has any dwellings nowadays (and hasn't had in my lifetime and probably not since the first tramline was built (as it ran along Pond Street). I can investigate more as my daughter lives there, just to convince myself.

I am happy with everyones findings (as happy as is possible without proof) unless others think I should carry on searching.

Many thanks

Margaret

Ellen Herbert b Q4 1838, Sheffield. £7 on its way!

Margaret

I'm going to print all this off to show my future son-in-law's mother that it isn't just a case of tapping a few names into the computer to get the results, that it needs logic and thinking out of the box. It took me two years to find my great grandfather William Holland (I know have three of the buggers in different branches!), and though I got there in the end, I am absolutely certain that had I known then about the help on GR I'd have got there in a couple of weeks.

Best wishes

Margaret

Margaret.
When I was visiting my mother in Middlesbrough I went to the bookshop and they had a History of Middlesbrough section.I got a Middlesbrough History in Maps.Published by The Cleveland and Teesside Local History Society. There was a separate booklet explaining the maps

I got 17 maps from 1618 beautifully drawn.

Map 2 showed the plots of land with little houses dotted about. At the bottom of the map it showed the names of those living at the houses.
The whole lot only cost me 5 pounds 50p. What a bargain.!

Perhaps you might be lucky and find something like that

Hi Quinsgran

I have bought some old maps at Family History Fairs, but until researching this current lot, I didn't have many rellies in Sheffield - I am about to inherit a whole clan! I do know the city a little, it is one of those places you go to once a year for Christmas shopping (not that I do that now), but I know little of the history. I have visited the family records centre (a terrible place).

Anyway, thanks for your help. I wouldn't have checked the marriage cert without you, cos I was semi-convinced he was not a local man.

Margaret

I just proves we musnt accept all we see on the census . Even dates can be off. For instance I found a son 40 years older than his father.

How simple this would have been if you had checked Sheffield for any Herberts" just incase"
Another lesson we have all learned

I suppose you look initially for things which can be confirmed by what is in front of you (i.e. not born in county), so I would probably have investigated all the Shropshire lot (eventually), before coming back to the birth in Cawood again. I must admit I would probably have assumed that Wilkes moved from wherever to Sheffield as an adult, without his family - so there's definitely a lesson for me.

Margaret

It didnt help because the marriage cert was so difficult to read and Wilks father only gave his initial which was also hard to read,. Could have been J,JW,or W.

Still it has sharpened our searching skills for the future

I contacted Sheffield Archives and sent them a copy of the certificate. They confirmed that it was a copy of the original as held by them and that in their opinion the father's name was John, which we found. They have no record of Pond Lane either.

Best wishes

Margaret

I wonder if Pond Lane was the name they knew it by and it became Pond St.. Great news about the cert confirming John as father.

There was a brewery called Pond Lane Brewery, but later listed as being on Pond Street, so I guess they are the same. Multimap seems to plonk Pond Lane at the end of Pond Street.

Margaret

So we're waiting for

Ellen Herbert b Q4 1838, Sheffield. £7 on its way!

? With bated breath! ... although it should just confirm the info in the IGI? so we'll still be left making that last little logical leap to that being your Wilkes in the IGI ...

Hi Janey

I don't see an option for anything different. Wish there were one. The birth cert of Ellen should give mother's maiden name at least. To confirm the family.

No, we have no proof of her being the mother of Wilk(e)s Herbert. Like you say, it is a logical leap. His father has been checked by Sheffield Archives as being John (yep, they could be as wrong as me), he is a bricklayer on Wilk's marriage cert, the John we found on the census is a bricklayer.

Unless you can think of anything else to search, I have to accept what we have found - don't I? I will put a note on my tree to the effect that it isn't certain.

Best wishes

Magaret

Oh, me, I have no problem with those last little logical leaps!

It can't be *disproved* and there is no *other* remotely reasonable theory, or any evidence, either known or reasonably imaginable (say, Wilkes belonged to a different family that left no trace in any record and had all died by 1841 ...) that would disprove this one.

And hey, this one was mine, so what's to dislike? ;)

Seriously, it's as close as you can come to proof, in the absence of actual proof, so you go with it, girl, if you want my advice!

Hi Janey, I feel we have to use logic at times. I feel we have done so wisely here.

Thanks for all your help.

Margaret

Meg - check out the info in this thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=356990

Herbert one-name study.

Thanks Janey, anything is worth a look. David Herbert's post is 2005 and he seems to have bitten the dust after only a handful of postings.

Never mind, I am pretty sure the stuff you found is as sound as can be.

Cert of Ellen Herbert not yet arrived, but don't think it will tell us anything new, just confirmation.

Now need a death for the fella. Made a contact at Sheffield Archives, will try him.

Thanks

Margaret